Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

Talking 👏👏👏

Why and how has it been accepted by society that referring to someone's previous name is "dead naming" and such an awful thing to do?Why is it any worse than referring to someone's maiden name, or any other previous details?

Astonishing. You will never understand trans people

My daughter rejects her birth name ( the one I gave her) with all of her new acquaintances and friends, and has done for quite a number of years now. She goes by another self chosen name. She associates her birth name with feelings and qualities, and responses from other people, that she does not like or identify with. I guess this is pretty much the same as a 'dead name' for trans people.

However, the immediate and extended family call her by her birth name, and she accepts this. Relationships are a two way process.

I have never seen you acknowledge a single one of our concerns, never seen you engage with our actual arguments, no matter how well articulated, never seen you express any compassion, respect or understanding for the life experiences that are exclusive to those of us born female in a society that habitually devalues the female and over-values the male

Absolutely!

Identifying as is not the same experience at all as identifying with' Identifying as is all about the self centred need for validation and expression; whereas identifying with is about fellow feeling and compassion.

I have never seen you acknowledge a single one of our concerns, never seen you engage with our actual arguments, no matter how well articulated, never seen you express any compassion, respect or understanding for the life experiences that are exclusive to those of us born female in a society that habitually devalues the female and over-values the male

One area in which I diverge with this view, is that I don't perceive the female experience to be always negative one; always shaped by 'patriarchy' ( even though that certainly exists) and devaluation. there is much that is positive and unique in the female experience, which I believe is born out of biology and what follows on from that biology.

No matter how subtle its impact I think biology is real; it matters, and it shapes experience. It shapes bio chemistry, and it shapes all that leads on from that bio chemistry. Chemistry shapes the brain and its structures and pathways from an early age; though there is also an obvious interplay with socialisation and upbringing, and with individual character.

And biology also shapes the sex drive in certain and different ways.....which is why it is rare to see a female equivalent of AGP.

Sometimes performative 'identifying with' is a deliberate attempt to 'force team'. Women and girls should be aware of this manipulative behaviour pattern.

Uncommonground Media DrEM
Forced Teaming, Feminism, LGB and ‘Trans Rights’
May 25, 2020
(extract)
"Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t. It builds trust when none should be there. Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement.

Forced teaming is behind the dictate of inclusiveness. It is by this way that manipulative males gain access and can control and change the goals of movements. It is how individual males have entered formerly women’s groups and formerly LGB pressure groups and can both watch what is being said and direct the narrative." (continues)

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

Brilliant posts Talking I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree 100%.

Hayton seems to change narrative more often than I change my socks. I saw an article a year or so ago where they acknowledge being AGP now they deny it.

As I understand it Hayton doesn't have a GRC not out of concern for women but because they don't qualify.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I am tired beyond belief of the nasty, nasty suggestions that trans people as a class are a threat to others. We arent. I am old enough to remember exactly that being said about gay people 25 years ago.

You cannot possibly be as tired as I am, Robin, of the disingenuous trope that it is the “trans” aspect of biologically male people that women perceive as a threat when you know, we all know, it has been stated and explained many, many times that it is the fact of being biologically male that is the issue.

The fact of you or any other biologically male person being “trans” (or not) is of absolutely no interest to me. It is not something around which my world revolves. The rights and safety of women and girls, and the safeguarding of children and vulnerable adults, are absolutely central issues to me, however, and whatever notice I take of anything “trans” related is taken from that perspective. **

The reality is that statistically, biologically male people represent a greater threat to biologically female people and children of both sexes than biologically female people do. My position and that of many other women on this board is that all biologically male people should be treated the same way when it comes to grouping people into the categories of male and female.

In this respect the women of this board are much closer to the agenda of the original gay rights activists than you are. Gay men wanted to have the same rights as other men: the right to consensual sex with partners at the same age, the same employment rights etc, the right not to be discriminated against by/in relation to other men. (Not ignoring the vital role of lesbians in historical gay rights activism of course, just focusing here specifically on male people.)

I support that approach entirely. Biologically male trans people should have all the same rights as all other biologically male people, and should be subject to all the same restrictions as all other biologically male people. It’s very simple. This is not about singling people out for being trans; it its not about “tarring all members of a group with the same brush”, and it’s certainly not “nasty”. (Unless you think caring about safeguarding is “nasty”, which would be really worrying so I’m sure that’s not what you meant.)

There are lot of perfectly nice, non-predatory men, and all of them should be subject to the same safeguarding protocols as all other men. The same goes for biologically male people who are trans. How is that hatred? How is that “nasty”? Equal treatment for all biologically male people across the board. When it comes to matters where someone’s sex is or could conceivably be a matter of import.

I think it was a catastrophic failure of government to enable people to misrepresent the physical truth about an aspect of themselves as crucial and fundamental as biological sex on official identity documents. It should never have been countenanced in the first place and it should be urgently reviewed.

The fact it is mostly biologically female people who are of this opinion, at the moment, and the fact that as such our voices are still genuinely marginalised, means that I dont see such a review coming about any time soon. Absent the male privilege/power that was/is behind the extraordinary success of the trans rights movement, when women (biologically female people, that is) want to see changes in the law, we generally have to wait a very long time to be heard.

** actually also, increasingly, from the perspective of being horrified by the phenomenon of regulatory capture, and by the growing authoritarianism of “liberal” western democracies.

This ^^

It doesn’t feel like you're on my side at all. It feels like you expect me and other women to support and include you without any thought of how that impacts us. It feels entirely one way, as has so often been the case in the dynamics between male and female people in the long and unillustrious history of patriarchy.

You are astonished at our lack of “understanding” for you.

I have never once seen you demonstrate even one single tiny iota of understanding for the women you presume to lecture here. Not one.

This ^^

In fact every word of that post, but particularly this.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I'd heard that you'd been making some outstanding posts. They weren't wrong 👏👏👏

Sometimes performative 'identifying with' is a deliberate attempt to 'force team'. Women and girls should be aware of this manipulative behaviour pattern.

I’ve seen that phrased before, by a trans person talking to LGB people, as ‘Let’s wear each other’s badges!’

It did feel rather manipulative at the time.

@MaudTheInvincible

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I'd heard that you'd been making some outstanding posts. They weren't wrong 👏👏👏

Absolutely totally. Top post!! (Sorry temp name change, over from the Hayton thread that turned hilarious).

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.

That’s extremely unfair on female members of staff. I hope Dr Hayton’s thought better of it and is trying to get all parts of those guidelines that compromise single-sex spaces revoked.

I don't believe Debbie has done so

I don't believe Debbie has done so

Sadly nor do I - I think if this was the case he’d have come back to say so.

@RobinMoiraWhite

*Why and how has it been accepted by society that referring to someone's previous name is "dead naming" and such an awful thing to do? Why is it any worse than referring to someone's maiden name, or any other previous details?*

Astonishing. You will never understand trans people.

And for a glimpse of why Robin will never understand women, I recommend a look at Robin's blog.

Here's a short excerpt.

A few weeks ago I was cooking and was missing an ingredient. I rushed down to our local supermarket. While I was there I decided that I needed to use 'the facilities'. I was off down the corridor behind the cigarette kiosk and then I had to comee to a shuddering STOP to remember whether I should be using the ladies or the gents. Check: skirt and heels - ladies! I came to such a sudden stop that the poor chap behind me made intimate contact with me from behind (I wish) but he was very nice about it. I didnt offer a complete explanation. It had me chucling to myself for days...

OldCrone

Yes. That blog post is one that is very enlightening. Every time I see it, it reinforces just how little I think my life experience resembles their’s.

Are there really well-educated adults who think the standard symbols on toilet doors indicate dress code rather than female/male sex?

blimey. So I've been using the wrong loo pretty much all my adult life except for warm summer days? And even in summer no heels.

Yes, Helleofabore. I wonder if that 'I wish' bit is how a gay man might react in that sort of situation, but it certainly has nothing in common with how a woman would react.

And as for the 'skirt and heels = woman', we're back to what is well known about child development:

So, based on the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair, James is also age-perfect in thinking that when appearance changes, sex changes too. Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too.

Most children understand that 'skirt and heels = woman' is untrue by the age of around 7.

Should a man on a fancy dress night out feel equally entitled to use the ladies?

If you ask NASUWT, as advised by Dr Hayton:

For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.

Maya Forstater article:

'Single sex spaces are a question of consent'

Single spaces are intended for the use of one sex or the other.
They are often provided to protect everybody’s privacy.

It’s a question of dignity
Being forced to undress, wash, share sleeping accommodation or have personal care with a person of the opposite sex without your consent is degrading.

No one shall be subject to degrading treatment.
Everyone has the right to respect for their private and family life
Article 3 and Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

Shared single sex spaces are often the most practical way to provide lots of people with everyday privacy and dignity.

It’s a question of consent
In the UK the Equality Act 2010 sets out many everyday situations where it is lawful to provide single sex services. This includes:

Circumstances where a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex
Equality Act 2010 – Schedule 3, Paragraph 27 (6)

People using a single sex service have not consented to sharing with members of the opposite sex." (continues)

a-question-of-consent.net/

(There is nothing wrong with a man using male toilets wearing a dress and slingbacks.)

There is everything wrong with a man using female toilets wearing a dress and slingbacks regardless their sartorial preference.