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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Debbie Hayton interview

528 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 05/04/2021 13:20

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

OP posts:
TransPony · 11/04/2021 22:26

@ErrolTheDragon

blimey. So I've been using the wrong loo pretty much all my adult life except for warm summer days? And even in summer no heels.Confused
Absolutely. I have worn heels as little as possible in my lifetime (small feet make an uncomfortably steep angle). I currently wear jeans, trainers and often a mans jumper.

I have never considered that maybe I should be using the men’s toilets because I am female.

Toilets are allocated based on sex. Sex is immutable, therefore no one should feel that they have a choice in which single sex facilities they use.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 11/04/2021 22:55

I haven’t worn heels for at least 25 years & live in jeans & trainers most of the time. Why has nobody ever told me that the figures on toilet doors are a dress code?

ArabellaScott · 11/04/2021 23:21

Talking, what a fantastic post, about two pages back. Thank you.

Datun · 12/04/2021 00:14

@ArabellaScott

Talking, what a fantastic post, about two pages back. Thank you.
Seconded.

Some exceptionally articulate posts on here.

StellaAndCrow · 12/04/2021 00:33

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I remember that woman's account of being "counselled" by MW, it was awful. There was also some question of MW's qualifications.
Yes, from a previous thread: "I know this is an old thread, but having my own negative experiences with this person has led me here. I think some of the main questions that should be asked are: what experience do they have of managing and managing charities specifically? What experience do they have of the VAWG sector? What qualifications do they have? Because I believe they are actually inexperienced for the role which begs the question why were they hired? When MW did “counselling” with me, she had no qualifications for this. And not only that, but she was poor at it anyway, she regularly yawned and looked at her phone. She is not a professional person. She has a huge following and support base but when you scratch the surface there is little substance to her knowledge or experience. How she got a job as a manager when she has never been a manager is bizarre.
transsloth · 12/04/2021 07:10

@ArabellaScott

Talking, what a fantastic post, about two pages back. Thank you.
Thanks for pointing that one out. I have just read back to read the brilliant and thoughtful posts from women.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 12/04/2021 08:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Justhadathought · 12/04/2021 09:29

I came to such a sudden stop that the poor chap behind me made intimate contact with me from behind (I wish) but he was very nice about it. I didnt offer a complete explanation. It had me chuckling to myself for days

A vicarious thrill! The main focus or consummation seems to be sexual in origin.

I simply cannot imagine a woman posting that and reporting it to be a thrilling experience.

I can't recall precisely who it was that turned up to the select committee on women's shelters & refuges, the year before last - and announced to the gathering, on first having arrived, that they'd been on-line shopping for sex toys on the train on the way up to London?

WarriorN · 12/04/2021 09:42

Yes excellent post talking.

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 12/04/2021 09:47

I can't recall precisely who it was that turned up to the select committee on women's shelters & refuges, the year before last - and announced to the gathering, on first having arrived, that they'd been on-line shopping for sex toys on the train on the way up to London?

That rings a bell. I think it was the same person that complained that the wifi on the train wasn’t allowing them to access porn?

A bit like the tw in hospital for a heart attack was caught and prosecuted for accessing images of serious child sex abuse on the ward.

Not very womanly behaviour imo Hmm

Clymene · 12/04/2021 09:47

That was Diana James justhadathought

James was so incensed they tweeted GWR complaining. James is a volunteer in Cornish women's refuges.

Dr Debbie Hayton interview
Clymene · 12/04/2021 09:48

And yes brilliant brilliant posts talking

IloveJKRowling · 12/04/2021 09:52

Fucking hell - quite clearly intended to involve others in their sexual fetish by talking about it all over SM. This person should be nowhere near safeguarding of any kind because they clearly don't understand boundaries or 'no' (good on GWR though).

I don't know a single woman who'd behave like that.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 10:15

Evidence to WESC
10/2/21
Naomi Cunningham Barrister
"The single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act are, in application, utterly commonplace. We all use them all the time. They are the justification for having women-only toilets and women-only changing rooms. They are the justification for providing a women-only swimming session at the swimming pool, or a women-only yoga class, or any single-sex space or service. There is the ability to exclude male people from certain women-only spaces or services where there is a good reason for that. Although the circumstances in which those exceptions arise are quite carefully defined in the Equality Act, they are in practice utterly commonplace. And they are all, or almost all—there may be very rare exceptions to this, but it is almost without exception—founded on differences of biological sex.
The fact that all those exceptions are founded on biological sex means that although the legal formalities of justifying excluding an individual with a GRC from a women-only service or space may be slightly different, in practice the answer is likely to be the same in almost every situation, because in practice it makes no difference whether someone has a certificate or not. It doesn’t make a difference to whether it impinges on the dignity and privacy of women using that service, or overrides their consent.

For example, if I use a women-only changing room, my consent is to undress in the company of other women, and the reason why Parliament has said that I am entitled to have the benefit of those exceptions is to do with biological sex. The fact that somebody has a gender recognition certificate doesn’t actually change that. It doesn’t mean that I feel more comfortable in the presence of somebody, in that particular situation, who I experience as male. A certificate doesn’t make a difference. I think that is quite important to understand, and how commonplace this is and how fundamentally it is based on consent. To override that is seriously concerning." (continues)
committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1693/default/

The NASUWT 'Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders ' fails to recognise or respect the importance of women and girls' consent. This puts it in direct opposition to the law and women and girls' human rights.

Understanding Consent is a required key focus in UK PSHE curriculum for all secondary schools and should be reinforced by a whole-school approach.

I am seriously concerned by teachers (especially male teaching staff) and teaching organisations who demonstrate a disregard for women and girls' consent and/or fail to accept that consent must always be clear, informed, willing and active .
Teachers have statutory responsibilities to the children in their care. The seriousness of disregarding these cannot be waved away with a shrugged, "I'm only human", excused due to personal pressures or having being on a slow journey of understanding Safeguarding principles.

PSHE Association
'TEACHING ABOUT CONSENT IN PSHE EDUCATION AT KEY STAGES 3 AND 4'
MARCH 2015
(Introduction extract)

"Furthermore, the key learning set out in this guidance – about respecting the rights of others, communication, negotiation and considering the freedom and capacity of others to make choices – is crucial in a range of situations young people will encounter in their lives... It also seeks to reinforce three points of key learning for all pupils, which reflect the law as well as basic human rights:

• It is the person seeking consent who is responsible (ethically and legally) for ensuring that consent is given by another person, and for ensuring that that person has the freedom and capacity to give their consent.
If consent is not clear, informed, willing and active, it must be assumed that consent has not been given. If consent is not clearly given, or is given and then subsequently retracted, this decision must always be respected. Since people can change their minds, or consent to one thing but not to something else, the seeker of consent must keep assessing whether consent is clear, informed, willing and active. Consent must be seen as an ongoing process, not a ‘one-off’.
• *In healthy relationships, both parties respectfully seek each other’s consent and know that their decision to give or not give consent will be respected. A person is never to blame if their decision not to give consent or to withdraw consent is not respected.

This learning is very important for all young people, so this guidance is intended for use in single-sex and mixed-sex schools and state and independent schools in every part of the country, serving a range of different communities." (continues)
www.pshe-association.org.uk/system/files/PSHE%20Association%20guidance%20on%20teaching%20about%20consent%20at%20key%20stages%203%20and%204%20March%202015_0.pdf

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 12/04/2021 10:35

I am seriously concerned by teachers (especially male teaching staff) and teaching organisations who demonstrate a disregard for women and girls' consent and/or fail to accept that consent must always be clear, informed, willing and active .
Teachers have statutory responsibilities to the children in their care. The seriousness of disregarding these cannot be waved away with a shrugged, "I'm only human", excused due to personal pressures or having being on a slow journey of understanding Safeguarding principles.

Absolutely. It is also concerning that even some high profile lawyers have such casual disregard for the law and their impact on other people as well as mocking and sneering at women for wishing to discuss and prioritise safeguarding.

It speaks a lot about the values of certain individuals.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 12/04/2021 13:01

Teachers have statutory responsibilities to the children in their care.

That's why I was disappointed that francis foster didn't acknowledge the issue in the interview. I know the interview wasn't that long and it's impossible to cover everything, but it seemed a missed opportunity. Given (I'm assuming) both hayton and foster both have more experience teaching than in prison showers.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 13:57

That's why I was disappointed that francis foster didn't acknowledge the issue in the interview. I know the interview wasn't that long and it's impossible to cover everything, but it seemed a missed opportunity. Given (I'm assuming) both hayton and foster both have more experience teaching than in prison showers.

I felt the same with regards Francis Foster.
The claim by Dr Hayton that he believes he "passes best in showers" was disconcerting.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 12/04/2021 14:12

FF and KK are trying really hard and doing good work, and I do think they "get it" more than when they interviewed PP - but that shower comment brought me up short, and I imagine a lot of women would hear that and have a spidey-sense prickle - it's just the opposite of what women would say. I'd be interested to know whether FF or KK noticed it.

I think the majority of male people, and that includes trans women, don't see that sort thing - it is very subtle, but, women are good at picking up on subtle because it is what gut feeling is and that keeps us away from male people who could harm us.

I am sure this must be very frustrating for trans women - my friends spend a lot of time and effort in trying to pass, and yet, it's the tiny, almost insignificant stuff like that which is a constant "tell" which can't be fixed with treatment or clothing. I don't think I've ever missed that someone is trans, not a caucasian person, anyway.

Trans men seem to have less difficulty passing. I'm not sure why, as trans men and their issues seem to be of less interest to advocacy groups, activists, journalists and social media warriors that I have come across. Perhaps there is a reason for that.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 14:32

I am sure this must be very frustrating for trans women - my friends spend a lot of time and effort in trying to pass, and yet, it's the tiny, almost insignificant stuff like that which is a constant "tell" which can't be fixed with treatment or clothing. I don't think I've ever missed that someone is trans, not a caucasian person, anyway.

Would we be so blasé about adults attempting to disguise/deny other material realities which gain/restrict access to spaces, services or resources, especially where children and Vulnerable Adults are impacted?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 12/04/2021 14:36

I see that as a separate issue, R0.

I don't have a problem with male people trying to appear feminine, I don't care how they dress or walk, if a particular haircut makes people happy, then, great, good for them.

I don't think that dressing in feminine clothes and having long hair should mean that male people can get into my single sex spaces, for exactly the reasons you mention.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 14:49

Of course vivarium and to go further, I don't see having long hair as being feminine or not masculine. I have brothers, one of whom has always had longer hair than the women in the family.

The key difference between my long-haired brother and someone male seeking to pass as the opposite sex is the acquisition or illusion of having acquired breasts.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 15:09

transcript from interview
Dr Hayton, "When I transitioned there were two tests of whether you'd made a successful transition (as it was called).
The aim was to address your mental health issues like, call them what you will.
The aim was to transition and then pass unnoticed in society, you know, and be taken at first glance as a member of the opposite sex.

So when when you heard people referring to you by pronouns, when people would say, "she" you thought, "oh I'm doing something right here." This, that you know, I'm you know, "something's going going right here"
The other one used to be being directed to the toilets. Which is another thorny, its become a thorny issue. So, if you said you know where the toilets are and if you were directed to the women's you think, "ah!" You know and you would ask them, you just didn't know, and that would be the way of testing these. You know, testing you know, the way you're projecting yourself to society"

PopperUppleton · 12/04/2021 15:44

I take it that's verbatim R0 - it's quite difficult to work out what's being said.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 15:49

Popper I've tidied it up a bit to try to make it easier to read. I agree that its difficult sometimes to be sure of what Dr Hayton is saying.

StillAFemale · 12/04/2021 16:48

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Once again I find myself musing on the eternal question: what is it, Robin, that you think you and I have in common, beyond that which we have in common with any other human being? What commonality do we share, that puts us in a group and joins us together with most biologically female people while excluding most biologically male people?

Because I just don’t see anything. Nothing at all. I am a woman because I am biologically female and I reached adulthood. That’s it. The only commonality I share with all other women is our female biology (however functional or not that biology is). The word woman says nothing more about me at all. I get that you didn't feel comfortable presenting to the world as a man, or as how men are generally expected to present.

But I have no idea why the concept of being a male person who isn’t comfortable presenting as a man should therefore equate to you being a “woman”, as if the meaning of “woman” were simply “person not comfortable being seen as a man”.

That would presuppose that there were no meaning already attached to the word “woman”; that it were an empty space waiting to be filled. But it wasn’t. It isn’t. Being a biologically female human being is a question of material reality, one which you don't share and will never share.

It is also, in the patriarchal world we live in, an experience of being socialised as a female, ie the “second sex”: again, as someone who was brought up and socialised male, as a member of the “first sex”, this is something you have no experience of.

Where is the overlap? What is our common ground, beyond our common humanity? Calling yourself a woman is an act of forced teaming, but in what way are we a team? How are we on the same side? How are you, particularly, as a member of the oppressor sex class, on my side, as a member of the oppressed sex class, when you appropriate my name for myself, my spaces and services, my rights?

It doesn’t feel like you're on my side at all. It feels like you expect me and other women to support and include you without any thought of how that impacts us. It feels entirely one way, as has so often been the case in the dynamics between male and female people in the long and unillustrious history of patriarchy.

You are astonished at our lack of “understanding” for you.

I have never once seen you demonstrate even one single tiny iota of understanding for the women you presume to lecture here. Not one.

I have never seen you acknowledge a single one of our concerns, never seen you engage with our actual arguments, no matter how well articulated, never seen you express any compassion, respect or understanding for the life experiences that are exclusive to those of us born female in a society that habitually devalues the female and over-values the male.

I have never seen any wish to learn from us. Any hint that you think there could be something you don’t already know. Any wish to amplify our voices.

All I see is a biologically male person who presumes to know better than the biologically female people whom that biologically male person is addressing.

Which is something I, along with most (all?) other biologically female people, am already very over familiar with. This is our everyday, as it has been for women since forever.

I have never yet seen a post from you Robin which indicates that you recognise that we are human beings of equal worth to you. Tell me again where our common ground is?

So much more eloquent than than anything I could have said but says so much about how I’ve felt reading this thread

Thank-you TalkingToLangClegInTheDark Flowers