If you are a mother, did you feel potentially feel more inclined to donate to this before you had children?

[RickiTarr]

I’m just watching the BBC documentary series about surrogacy and thinking how my attitude to gametes and generic inheritance has changed since becoming a mother.

The first “traditional” or “straight” surrogate interviewed in this programme seems very blasé about her relationship with her own eggs. It’s just made me wonder.

@OhHolyJesus thank you, that’s actually really helpful. There really is this narrative about babies being a “gift” (brought by a bloody stork) when in fact, they are actually a human being created by a biological process. And this even permeates into attitudes to struggles in pregnancy/parenting and abortion - this is a GIFT and should be appreciated accordingly.

And certainly from a policy level for surrogacy it’s arguably straightforwardly better to draw the line at none, where the cost to genuine altruistic donors is outweighed by the imperative to focus on the child and protect the vulnerable. I really don’t underestimate the heartbreak of being childless.

I also 100% agree with you on adoption nowadays being focused on finding families for children not the other way round - although I’m not sure this is widely understood. And surrogacy is the opposite.

What an interesting thread, thanks OP.

Re: egg donation I'd never ever have considered it because of the invasive nature of the process to obtain them and the risks involved which are entirely minimised. For repeat donors (especially in the USA where bodies are pushed to the limit to obtain dozens of eggs at each cycle) there are likely to be long term risks from all the hormone treatment but these women are not followed up and there is little research.

Through my work I had dealings with a couple of women who had ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome (egg collection for their own use, not donation) and one needed treatment in ICU. It prompted me to do an FOI to my own hospital and I found there were 24 admissions for OHSS in 2019. I don't know what % that would represent, IVF treatment is not offered at my hospital and where it is funded by the NHS it is outsourced to the local private fertility clinic, plus some of the women may have had treatment elsewhere but it should not be dismissed as a minor risk. I have no idea why anyone would agree to do this! Quite apart from the whole issue of gamete donation and all the considerations around that.

Pothole it extends to that ‘seahorse’ stuff too. Such a misrepresentation of human pregnancy. A male seahorse with a pouch carrying fertilised eggs about is not ‘pregnant’. Wombs aren’t just a cosy pocket to keep something in.

However, we can’t pretend that there aren’t people in the world who have been negatively affected by being donor conceived. We can’t wish their feelings away or minimise their pain because their feelings happen to be inconvenient to the fertility industry or uncomfortable for the prospective parents.

Agree but that standard isn't universally applied. Women who become pregnant from one night stands aren't told to have terminations even though it is well evidenced that a proportion of children who grow up with a single parent suffer some negative consequences. Similarly, mumsnet is really supportive of teenagers who want to continue pregnancies even though, again, we know that statistically children of teenage mothers often do suffer adverse effects.

Re Surrogacy I have always been opposed. Babies are not gifts to be handed out to anyone who wants one or to be bartered over and sold. And having worked as a midwife for twenty years I know all too well the toll pregnancy and childbirth takes on a woman's body and the potential risks. Women are not gestators, to be employed breeding babies for those that can afford to buy one. And in many ways I think altruistic surrogacy eg between sisters or best friends is even more problematic. I don't think it's a very friendly thing to do to ask one's best friend to put themselves at risk and go through pregnancy and childbirth on one's own account.

I realise midwives and maternity staff have to give appropriate care to any pregnant woman who presents in a non judgemental way but I am shocked by midwives who are pro surrogacy. I don't know how they cannot see the problems, and clearly they haven't done much research into the issues imo. There are so many contradictions too. They learn about the "fourth" stage of labour, about maternal bonding and breastfeeding and then cheerfully hand over a new baby to baby buyers and enthuse about it all. I think giving away a baby one has just given birth to is a hugely unnatural thing to do. I realise many women don't instantly fall in love with their new baby and some can have problems bonding, but that isn't the same thing as wanting to give the baby away. I think surrogate mothers are hugely gaslighted and encouraged to think of themselves as just an oven or extreme babysitting or any number of other offensive terms to condition themselves not to bond with the baby and to prepare for giving it away. It's sad that midwives would join in with this.

I am also shocked by the stance of the NHS - I've written to one or two NHS bigwigs about it, including Simon Stevens OP, but I haven't included your point: So now we have an enormous public body, an organ of the state, guaranteeing to procure women’s bodies for others to grow babies in
I'll add something along those lines to my next letter!

Incidentally for any letter writers out there, Simon Stevens passed on my correspondence to:

Matthew Jolly
National Clinical Director for Maternity and Women's Health
Acute Medical Directorate
NHS England and NHS Improvement

[email protected]

If anyone wants to voice concerns.

Incidentally for any letter writers out there, Simon Stevens passed on my correspondence to:

Matthew Jolly
National Clinical Director for Maternity and Women's Health
Acute Medical Directorate
NHS England and NHS Improvement

[email protected]

If anyone wants to voice concerns.

I do and I will. Thanks.

Here is a link to a podcast about egg donation and the potential risks.

"Maggie was a young, bright-eyed college student when she was first recruited as an egg donor. She eagerly signed up to donate her eggs with plans of helping families while earning some money for her future. Instead, she got stage 4 invasive ductal carcinoma, a diagnosis she is certain she acquired as a result of multiple rounds of egg donation. Her painful experience was documented in our 2015 documentary “Maggie’s Story.” After battling cancer and the completion of chemotherapy, Maggie returned to school to obtain a masters degree in relational counseling, and her focus is working with clients diagnosed with cancer and other illnesses. This June, she will celebrate five years of remission. Today, we are pleased to welcome Maggie and her parents to Venus Rising as we revisit her story and continue an important conversation about the hidden dangers of the fertility industry. Watch "Maggie's Story" on Amazon here: amzn.to/2K7Svou "

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000507504125

I think a PP said you had to have previously had a healthy birth of your own before doing surrogacy. That’s not a legal requirement. And the Law Commission were suggesting a minimum age of 18 years old, there’s lots of threads on this.

Emma (in the BBC programme) was 23 I think and was turned down by a fertility clinic (this alone is surprising) due to her age so this led to her agreeing to using her own eggs. I've no idea how this came about, this wasn't shown. It could have been her offering or in response to a "oh no what shall we do?" Q from Kevin and Aki. It may have had no change in Emma's perspective at all, but this decisions suddenly involves her son Jacob perhaps more than it did before, but he was 2 so hardly had a say in it. For Jacob I imagine that Mia was his sister when she was inside his Mother's womb, but since she doesn't live them then it's not as if he will develop a relationship with her as her brother.

I mention this as one surrogate mother in "Breeders" spoke about how she realised how it would affect her daughter, but not up until the point where she had just given birth. It's a tragic story to recounts but I strongly recommend it (on Amazon Prime).

I don't think even 30 year olds can fully necessarily comprehend their actions, as was demonstrated by Breeders, when they convince themselves and are constantly told that they are just the carrier/host/oven/extreme babysitter. It sometimes feels like a feat in mental control or extreme persuasion.

I'm currently reading Broken Bonds, a collection of accounts from surrogate mothers (and I would also recommend this). I didn't need convincing that 'altruistic' surrogacy wasn't prioritising the child either but it didn't take many chapters to see how truly awful it can be. I think it's is rather short sighted to view it as always ok if it's within a family. Doesn't it depend on the family and those involved? Whether the woman is vulnerable? Would it be ok if she had learning disabilities, or if she had lost her mother at a young age, or was an 18 year old student who didn't want to be paid but wanted her university fees paid? Or maybe she's 36 with her own family but as a result of a horrible pregnancy she doesn't consider that career change she had previous thought about or has rows with her husband as she rejects him sexually? There are so many different scenarios and it's rare to hear about them so I do really recommend reading more around it than what we see in the mainstream.

Fair point. It’s just different types of potential loss/regret, isn’t it?

Yes - I think even for those who say they don't regret it there is some form of loss. The baby is with you, inside you and then suddenly it isn't and your arms are empty. It's what you planned and maybe many truly are fine with it but there is a loss for the baby if not for yourself as a surrogate mother.

From the reading I've done there is an addiction to surrogacy, as Jemma in the BBC programme spoke about. One surrogate mother, Susan A Ring, wrote about it in her book. Immediately after birth she wanted to be pregnant again. I've never heard of that happening or for that feeling to descend on you if you have given birth to your baby that you intend in keeping. I also wonder if the serial surrogate mothers do it for this reason or for the money.

If it is an addiction and something that makes you 'high' on the hormones or feeling of being so generous you have gifted a baby, what hole is that filling?

I think it's very complex and the deep emotional/mental side is never explored or at least never explored enough and most definitely not in the counselling sessions as they are there for other reasons.

There are too many imbalances for me. The surrogate and baby when made from her eggs being treated as a commodity to fulfill someone's desire for a baby. The woman sacrifices so much of and the intended parents may never understand that as they can't go through it themselves. The woman may not realise either until she is pregnant/baby is born and feel unable to stop it. Taking a baby at birth from their mother unless in their best interests such as in adoption isn't in the baby's best interests either. Feels like a lot of sacrifices and potentially of the vulnerable as demonstrated in the TV programme. To me ultimately it feels like a balance of the desire to have a baby that is biologically theirs with using a woman to carry, birth the baby, use her eggs and the child themselves being taken from their mother to fulfill that. Maybe in certain circumstances but not what was shown on that TV programme

A similar argument is made about eggs being released each month and we are just wasting them. How selfish of us women throwing way such precious gametes/DNA when they could be 'used' by someone else to have a family. Terribly careless of us.

There seems much more pressure on women to donate their DNA then men, who literally just spunk it up the wall.

There seems much more pressure on women to donate their DNA then men, who literally just spunk it up the wall.

I think because there are quite a lot of men who are willing to do it. There are lots of male students who are quite willing to ejaculate into a jar for some money and like the idea of helping an infertile couple.

Egg donation is a lot less appealing to women for obvious reasons, so the incentives/pressure needs to be greater.

In my younger days I think I was relaxed about surragacy.

Now not so. I believe whilst baby is is in the womb it is connected to mum in a irreplaceable way. Knowing her heart beat, her voice and her rhythm. It seems cruel to remove a baby from her mother at the very point in their life they are totally reliant on their love and care.

[quote FlyPassed]@RickiTarr yes, I was a teenager in the 90s. They really did a number on us, and I see the same and worse happening to girls now. I hope they don't take 20 years to wake up!

Sorry for the slight tangent but want to share this with @EyesOpening

That film was a comedy (?!) but this was real and I'm sure happens more than we will ever know.

Here's an interesting podcast about a fertility Dr who used his own sperm, repeatedly and secretly on his patients. Very disturbing stuff

open.spotify.com/show/46TcODnKtW7qtHBnTYOK1z?si=W14TqNUZSg2iGCtI6xXnyQ&utm_source=copy-link[/quote]
Thank you
There were too many episodes to listen to right now so I looked his name up instead.

www.nytimes.com/2017/05/15/world/europe/dutch-fertility-doctor-swapped-donors-sperm-with-his-lawsuit-claims.html

I think I would have been quite blasé about egg donation when I was younger and would have done it if offered some money for it while I was a student. Then again I was fairly blasé about a lot of things at that age.

Now I’d be really upset at the idea of my biological child possibly existing out there somewhere without me. I’m not sure whether I feel like that because I’m a mother now or just because I’ve matured. I do wonder how many women who have donated their eggs in their 20s are now regretting it years down the line.

However, I have female same sex couple friends who have had children through sperm donation, they are wonderful mothers and I think it’s great that they’ve been able to have children, so I’d be a bit hypocritical if I was to say that sperm donation is okay but egg donation isn’t.

I feel very uneasy about the idea of commercial surrogacy though, I’m sure some women genuinely get on fine with it but I can’t help feeling it must be physically and emotionally traumatic for many. After having children it just goes against all of my instincts to give birth to a child and then hand them over to someone else.

Egg donation is a lot less appealing to women for obvious reasons, so the incentives/pressure needs to be greater.

The more I've looked into donor gametes and donor conceived children I've changed how I feel about this and see a difference in how it's presented.

Sperm is considered 'seed' and there is some ego present in fathering lots of children, but it is also presented as 'helping'. Men who are serial sperm donors do not talk about doing it to be a father multiple times but it's clear it's tied to being fertile and some kind of sexual prowess, and from online groups the 'delivery' of the sperm isn't necessarily removed from the idea of sex itself ('natural insemination).

Eggs and the pressure of idea of donating weighs heavily on the 'helping' or altruistic part. Looking at the adverts alone demonstrates this. The very real idea of being a mother when donating eggs is removed. The idea of helping someone have a family is central and I think it's shown this way to appeal to women who want to be 'angels', and again, holding onto or not using your eggs is seen as selfish.

This is really informative:

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/02/21/egg-donation-empowering-really/

I do have sympathy for people who desperately want children and can't have them. It must be awful and I think it is that which drives many people who have children of their own to want to help others. But I agree that often things are too centred on the parents to be and not enough thought is given to the donors and particularly the children. There was a poster upthread who said that fostering and adoption are about finding the right family for a child and surrogacy/donation are the other way round. I'd never thought of it like that but the more I think, the truer that seems.
Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone - I've got a friend who was adopted as a baby who genuinely has no interest in finding out about her birth parents for instance - but I think a lot of people have a deep seated need to know where they "came from". The explosion in genealogy sites and DNA testing and tge popularity of programmes like Long Lost Families, Who Do You Think You Are etc are testament to this. So a child denied knowledge of their genetic origins may well suffer psychologically, but allowing access to the donors in later life is fraught with potential difficulties too. Plus of course there is a major risk of coercion and abuse of potential fonors and surrogates.
The more I think about it, the worse it all seems. I am sure a lot of donorsxand surrogates do get involved out of altruistic feelings but so much can potentially go wrong, for anybor all of the parties involved.

OhHolyJesus your post has summed up my muddled head. Women are either guilted into egg donation (even being kind has guilt at the bottom of it) or bribed (cheaper IVF if you donate eggs) men are just "doing their thing".

I watched this documentary too. So many issues I'd love to discuss but too many for one thread!

To answer the question, I'd never considered donating eggs before I had my DC. Now that I'm a mum, I wouldn't consider either donating eggs or being a surrogate as my own DC need me and they're my priority. I wouldn't undergo any unnecessary medical procedure for this reason. I'm in my mid thirties now so probably too old anyway!

Happy to be of service Toffee and Aozora

I've had a great education on the subject from others on this board and when something takes my interest I tend to want to know it all. I found it significant that in general the media only shows one side and I struggled to find the opposing view represented, so when I find something that shows the darker side I like to share it.

Anyone seeking to influence or reform our laws, I think should do the same, that's why I was surprised to see this.

The whole webinar from Nordic Model now was a real eye opener.

I would find it very difficult to see surrogacy as I used to now. It truly is a sign of our collective moral compass if we see women's bodies as commodities and therefore the baby as the resulting product, and I can see why erasing mothers/motherhood and the language that connects with that as a useful foundation to build upon.

I have been quite focused on the manipulated advertising in my country used to convince pretty young college women (nobody seems to want average or below intelligence eggs), to be kind and give their eggs (their possible future children) to strangers.

But I had not heard of financial discounts to women going through IVF if they gave up one of their eggs!!!!! The pain and emotional toil of dealing with infertility can cause you to feel desperate and frankly vulnerable to unethical ideas you may not have considered before. I find those financial incentives appalling. It's not right for anyone to be offered that "choice."

I think I would have been quite blasé about egg donation when I was younger and would have done it if offered some money for it while I was a student. Then again I was fairly blasé about a lot of things at that age.

Some ads for egg donation sell the idea as a way to, "pay for a vacation." They know this audience is blasé and not focused on the long-term consequences.

Yes think there is a big ethical difference between adult lesbian couple asking for a single man to donate (not a serial sperm donator) and manipulative, commodified egg retrieval from young women who have never had children. Plus, as other posters have pointed out, sperm donation is an orgasm with zero health risks to the man. Egg donation has many know health risks and many unknown long-term risks.

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I came to this concern for egg donations after seeing advertisements on my teenage DD's frequently browsed sites related to college search (she is an athlete and was searching for schools in her sport). When she was just 15. Not even ready for college nor of legal age to donate, she was being groomed to consider donating her eggs. At an age when she'd only had her period for a few years!!!

It sent me down a rabbit hole and introduced me to all these lovely moms here who also had similar stories that compelled them to help women.

Delphinium Yes in the UK you can get discounted IVF if you agree to donate some of your eggs as part of your cycle. The recipient pays for their IVF plus the remaining portion of the donors.

So potentially one could do this, their attempt fail and the recipients be successful, that seems a difficult circle to square.