If you are a mother, did you feel potentially feel more inclined to donate to this before you had children?

[RickiTarr]

I’m just watching the BBC documentary series about surrogacy and thinking how my attitude to gametes and generic inheritance has changed since becoming a mother.

The first “traditional” or “straight” surrogate interviewed in this programme seems very blasé about her relationship with her own eggs. It’s just made me wonder.

@RickiTarr yes, I was a teenager in the 90s. They really did a number on us, and I see the same and worse happening to girls now. I hope they don't take 20 years to wake up!

Sorry for the slight tangent but want to share this with @EyesOpening

That film was a comedy (?!) but this was real and I'm sure happens more than we will ever know.

Here's an interesting podcast about a fertility Dr who used his own sperm, repeatedly and secretly on his patients. Very disturbing stuff

open.spotify.com/show/46TcODnKtW7qtHBnTYOK1z?si=W14TqNUZSg2iGCtI6xXnyQ&utm_source=copy-link

No. If I had viable eggs I'd donate them with no problem even now.

During my pregnancy I didn't feel anything really apart from a bit nauseous. I didn't know if DS was moving at first until he was a lot bigger and they were kicks. I had very little awareness or connection with the baby inside me. though I was not unhappy in general. My emotional relationship with DS definitely started after birth but I did have PND so maybe my experience is not usual

I wouldn't have been a surrogate though for selfish physical reasons. I get nauseous and really really hate feeling nauseous even mildly. I also wouldn't want to put myself in danger of the damage which births can cause . I already have much weaker orgasms and issues from bad tearing from DS being born 16 years ago.

So no I'd only give birth again if I were to get a child out of it, I'd not put myself through that for someone else but then I never thought I'd happily be a surrogate before DS either. That was to do with the physicality of birth not about giving the eggs which I would have and would still do if they were viable.

I have to echo a pp who said no one seems to tell childless women/first time pregnancies that you get to know the baby before it's born.

For what it's worth, I didn't feel that way at all about my pregnancies. I quite often forgot I was pregnant and didn't feel any real connection with my babies until they were born.

@MattyGroves

I have to echo a pp who said no one seems to tell childless women/first time pregnancies that you get to know the baby before it's born.

For what it's worth, I didn't feel that way at all about my pregnancies. I quite often forgot I was pregnant and didn't feel any real connection with my babies until they were born.

Similar here, to me pregnancy is simply growing and incubating a baby and I didn't even get that first rush of love either.

I did spend all three pregnancies convinced there would be and outcome, so a real mix of emotions.

So even if I could detach myself I would imagine that my feelings around loss would be a hundredfold worse.

There's a website called We Are Donor Conceived. It's by people who were conceived by egg or sperm donation. Many of them are not happy about it.

Some of them feel that their biological parents saw them as gifts to give away and/or that the recipient parents saw them as objects to obtain at any cost.

Not all donor conceived children feel this way, of course, but it seems that many do.

The problem with focusing only on the rights and pain of the infertile couple is that the rights and pain of others is minimised.

The problem is that websites like that are generally very self selecting. I’m not sure how representative they actually are.

@hollowchocolate

The problem is that websites like that are generally very self selecting. I’m not sure how representative they actually are.

Indeed. Here is a research study on the subject psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2017-32863-001.pdf

I would never have donated eggs. I have always been the kind of person that would worry about the welfare of those unknown children that existed on account of me. I was uncomfortable with commercial surrogacy because it seems like buying human beings. I also think the child welfare pitfalls are too obvious. We try to avoid child abusers adopting babies (and they have tried!), and we try to step in and safeguard (e.g. by informing the woman what he is and supporting her to split up with him) when a known child abuser gets a woman pregnant, but what safeguards are in place if a rich child abuser pays a woman to undergo a pregnancy for him? Especially if he arranges it so that he is the only genetic parent?

I thought surrogacy was a matter of personal choice for women beyond that. But now I, and my social circle, are having children and I am realising exactly how much of a toll pregnancy and childbirth takes on physical health and what the risks are.

There are plenty of articles around to explain why Indian farmers shouldn't be exploited into selling a kidney because the loss of one can cause life-long disability, and so on. The parallels with pregnancy are clear.

Thanks matty

I couldn’t be so cheeky as to ask for a summary could I? It’s a little small to see on my phone. And my 3 month old will never let me

I'm not very attached to my eggs but the process of getting them out isnt without risks. I wouldnt take those risks. I also think the child would want to meet me at a later date and their half siblings - which is fine if they were cousins but a bit odd after years.

Interesting how attitudes vary.
Before having a baby I was quite comfortable with the idea of egg donation (nice thing to do for someone) and altruistic surrogacy. Commercial surrogacy always seemed wrong and exploitative to me.
Having now been through miscarriages, pregnancy and birth the scales have truly dropped from my eyes.
It's a visceral, emotional and life changing experience.
I would feel enormous sympathy for people wanting children but not being able to have them, but I couldn't donate any part of my reproductive tissue now and can't imagine how surrogacy can ever be considered as a financial transaction or that someone should be allowed to consider it their right to demand it.
Am I selfish to want to deny other people? Maybe. But my attitude has shifted from what I want, to what would be best for the child. I could no more let my eggs grow up into a person I had no responsibility in keeping safe and well than I would hand over my DD to a stranger.
I think for many of us actually becoming a parent really shifts your priorities.

I'm not a mum, but looked into being a surrogate because I felt guilty choosing not to use a (presumably - judging by my ridiculous number of first cousins) healthy womb.

A similar argument is made about eggs being released each month and we are just wasting them. How selfish of us women throwing way such precious gametes/DNA when they could be 'used' by someone else to have a family. Terribly careless of us.

This is an interesting discussion OP, for me each if the women who were surrogate mothers in the BBC documentary series had some kind of mental health/emotional void they were seeking to fill. I saw each of them as vulnerable. Faye, who has Baby Miles for single gay man David spoke about it briefly when she was walking her dog and Emma, the single mother living in a studio flat with her 2 year old son, having Baby Mia for Kevin and Aki, she said she would be devastated if there wasn't an enduring relationship. I think she wanted more of a co-parenting situation too but that's just how I saw it.

Whether these adults do bond for life and stay in touch remains to be seen. I read a lot to suggest it's not as it seem, or as we are expected to believe from mainstream media coverage on surrogacy.

Donor conceived children who will be able to know their genetic parents as the law changed (2005) are hitting 15/16 this year, but I imagine that it could be another 10-15 years, when they maybe begin to consider starting a family of their own, before they think of where their DNA comes from, if they haven't considered looking before then.

I feel that because pregnancy and birth are so trivialised, the change it makes to women is trivialised. That has all kinds of negative consequences for women. I’m not surprised that women might feel differently about something after such an intense experience as pregnancy and birth.

I am not saying the only way to be a mother or to do mothering for a child is after pregnancy and birth. These are two different things.

I'm a lesbian. I'm currently aware of another lesbian, in her 40s and on the outer edges of my social circle, desperately seeking for a woman willing to use her frozen eggs (frozen because of a hysterectomy) and donor sperm to provide a child for her. The woman concerned has a long history of mental health issues and general instability in her life and wants another woman to do this for her for free. The only women even contemplating it are very young and idealistic and I really worry for them.

If you live to regret surrogacy, though, how much worse to have used your own genetic material and given away your own genetic child

Good point but I think women who have surrogate babies who do regret would consider that irrelevant - as in, they are the mother because they made, grew and have birth to the child. The fact that the baby was made with other DNA is irrelevant to who the mother is.

I see your point, especially if the woman already has children, which is generally what happens in surrogacy, but the connection comes from the pregnancy and not the DNA. Perhaps it is worse when you know your children have half-siblings they will never know.

The whole process of having eggs harvested put me off before having children.

Selfishly, I don't want part of me belonging to someone else. My kids are older now and probably not far off from having to let them go, but they're still a part of me- a look; a behaviour. I suppose biologically it makes sense to have our dna spread far and wide, but I can't shake the feeling that they're mine.

On the legal side here's something from Ireland where surrogacy is currently unregulated, and England and Wales and Scotland are seeking to reform surrogacy laws (1985). Talking about law reform on this board lead me to be totally against all forms of surrogacy.

www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40255304.html

I actually looked into egg donation when I was younger. It wasn’t the fact it was gametes or whatever that put me off, but how invasive the procedure is. If it had been like giving blood I probably would have done it, and feel the same now (post kids, too old!).

Surrogacy is a completely different matter. I don’t do well in pregnancy and after DC1 told DH he could carry the next one. The idea of carrying a baby for someone else is just a great fat no from me. I really struggle with the ethics of it. On the one hand, a sister carrying for her sister seems somehow noble and generous through to commercial surrogacy which I can’t get on board with for many reasons. But where to draw the line?

I started watching that programme but had to stop as it made me feel quite uncomfortable (probably more so as am pregnant currently) - I think it was the power imbalances; boss and employee, wealthy couple and single mum. I agree with a pp that there seemed to be a vulnerability and maybe naivety about the surrogates. Yeah it’s a tricky one!

This is an interesting discussion OP, for me each if the women who were surrogate mothers in the BBC documentary series had some kind of mental health/emotional void they were seeking to fill. I saw each of them as vulnerable. Faye, who has Baby Miles for single gay man David spoke about it briefly when she was walking her dog and Emma, the single mother living in a studio flat with her 2 year old son, having Baby Mia for Kevin and Aki, she said she would be devastated if there wasn't an enduring relationship. I think she wanted more of a co-parenting situation too but that's just how I saw it.

Yes that’s very much how it seemed to me, too.

Why do so many young women still feel the way to be worthwhile or accepted is to give, give & give of themselves? Even to strangers for no reward? I found it chilling, actually.

Thanks @OhHolyJesus I’ll read that later.

But where to draw the line?

It took a while to find it but for me it came down to:

Is a baby a human being

Or

Is a baby a gift that can be given away to whoever you choose?

And

What would a baby choose if he or she or they had a voice? multiples are more common in surrogacy as two or more embryos are implanted - two for the price of one - at least in places like California and India before commercial surrogacy was banned.

And no, surrogacy (and fostering) is entirely different to adoption, which centres the child.

Does a woman's body autonomy mean she 'owns' everything that comes out of it including another human life?

@OhHolyJesus

If you live to regret surrogacy, though, how much worse to have used your own genetic material and given away your own genetic child

Good point but I think women who have surrogate babies who do regret would consider that irrelevant - as in, they are the mother because they made, grew and have birth to the child. The fact that the baby was made with other DNA is irrelevant to who the mother is.

I see your point, especially if the woman already has children, which is generally what happens in surrogacy, but the connection comes from the pregnancy and not the DNA. Perhaps it is worse when you know your children have half-siblings they will never know.

Fair point. It’s just different types of potential loss/regret, isn’t it?

@hollowchocolate

The problem is that websites like that are generally very self selecting. I’m not sure how representative they actually are.

I agree that such websites are self-selecting. And I agree that there are many other donor conceived children who are happy and well-adjusted.

However, we can’t pretend that there aren’t people in the world who have been negatively affected by being donor conceived. We can’t wish their feelings away or minimise their pain because their feelings happen to be inconvenient to the fertility industry or uncomfortable for the prospective parents.

Interestingly, most of the children on the website were conceived through donor sperm. I am not sure whether it’s because egg donation has only recently become more commonplace, and the children conceived through egg donation are too young to publicly express their feelings. Or perhaps there is another explanation - e.g. children conceived through egg donation are more comfortable with their origins than those conceived through sperm donation. (Instinctively I feel this cannot be the right explanation, but I could be wrong.)

It’s a debate I will be keeping an eye on in future.

I think a PP said you had to have previously had a healthy birth of your own before doing surrogacy. That’s not a legal requirement. And the Law Commission were suggesting a minimum age of 18 years old, there’s lots of threads on this.

I don’t think it’s patronising to be alert to massive power imbalances and financial, age, life experience, social vulnerability. We have an (inadequate) welfare system because we acknowledge these things.

ChattyLion

I feel that because pregnancy and birth are so trivialised, the change it makes to women is trivialised.

Nail. On. Head.

Every time this issue comes up, women are accused of reversing their position because of having children and the "alright Jack" accusations fly.

Yes. I've changed my position. Because I am now far more informed about the physical reality of pregnancy and childbirth, to the same degree that I previously knew about the risks of kidney donation. The health ramifications of pregnancy and childbirth (and indeed the invasiveness of assisted reproductive technologies) are constantly trivialised in society, and my previous opinions were shaped by those attitudes.