An appeal to Archbishop Justin Welby to extend his views on free speech to cover women - Women in the Church of England whistleblow about gender ideology

[ChristinaXYZ]

www.conservativesforwomen.org/women-in-the-church-of-england-whistleblow-about-gender-ideology

"Our whistleblowers tell us that there is pressure from the Church to simply 'affirm' any man as a woman who demands it. Members of the congregation are supposed to participate in affirming men as women 'even if we are rape victims'. A man must be affirmed as a woman 'even though many of our congregations include women who have been abused by men, vulnerable people such as girls with learning difficulties, children who have experienced abuse, families of transitioners and victims of male clergy abuse'.

"This is coercive speech... The grooming angle is horrendous... It goes against safeguarding procedures...".

"Few of us signed up for this new form of controlled speech and belief... No consideration is given to anyone else's belief or consent. Clergy must use female pronouns for males on male demand, and clergy are required to hide reality, and mislead entire church congregations about the birth sex of males who identify as women. Demands from transgender people to control everyone else's language, and hide their birth sex, are to take precedence over the beliefs and material reality of entire church congregations, including male abuse survivors, despite the huge number of vulnerable people churches welcome..."

"The CofE transgender guidance is gaslighting children, victims of male abuse, people with learning difficulties, survivors of male clergy abuse, women, those with learning difficulties, children - entire congregations full of vulnerable people"."

Yes as we have been saying for years, many organisations have been captured by the trans ideology. However as a Catholic child I was told I had to believe that the communion wafer and wine was literally the body and blood of god, an ideology which I rejected at age 8. Strange how some people’s pain is given more importance than everyone else’s .

Funny how the Church of England fought and fought not to allow women to be ordained, and quite a few male ministers defected to the Catholic Church in protest, and were welcomed into the priesthood with open arms despite being married with children. So unable to take the required vows of celibacy.

But are seemingly delighted to accept transwomen with no qualms. 🤔

So much for "you shall not bear false witness"
and
"you shall not covet"

I can confirm that the vicar has had training on having difficult conversations regarding this. Didn't mention which way it was going to go.

Revd Carol Stone was the first transgender CofE vicar. Interesting to read that a woman had to be escorted out of the church when Carol returned after Carol’s transition.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1052786.stm

Sunday Times March 05 2017
Jenni Murray: 'Be trans, be proud — but don’t call yourself a “real woman”
Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up'

(extract)
"The first time I felt anger when a man claimed to have become a woman was in December 2000, when the Rev Peter Stone announced he had undergone the radical surgery to transition from male to female and was now called Carol. Her primary concerns, she told me, were finding the most suitable dress in which to meet her parishioners in her new persona and deciding if she should wear make-up or not.

Her transition had taken place a mere six years after the Church of England ordained the first 32 women priests, at a time when the idea of a female bishop was still regarded as impossible and when parishes were allowed to refuse a female vicar if there were objections.

I remember asking Carol what she owed those women who had struggled for so long to have their calling to the priesthood acted upon. His calling, as a man, had never been questioned. I had nothing but a blank look and more concerns about clothing. “I know it sounds silly,” she said. “But I’ve nothing to wear.”

Too right it sounded silly. I thought of all those women who had spent years and years challenging what being female had meant as they sat in the pews on a Sunday morning: 2,000 years of institutionalised patriarchy; no woman but a virgin mother and a handful of tortured saints to look up to; women only good for refreshing the flowers, raising the kids and making tea for the vicar.

Even after women’s ordination had been allowed, the discrimination continued to rage. In 2000, the Rev Vivienne Faull became provost of Leicester Cathedral, the most senior woman in the Church of England at the time. She told me then that the church was awash with believers who thought a woman’s place was in the home or in a pew, wearing a hat. She had to contend with a canon who refused to celebrate services with her and would not receive holy communion from her hand.

I wondered when Carol would experience what so many newly ordained women had heard from fellow priests as they passed through the vestry. “Pulpit pussy”, they told me, was the favoured insult, and they found it demeaning, disgusting and it hurt.

It was news to Carol that life as a woman, especially a middle-aged woman, stepping into male territory in which she was unwelcome would be extremely tough. I prayed Carol would not find it so hard. Experience told me otherwise. It wasn’t going to be all about frocks and make-up. It was about sexual politics and feminism — ideas of which she seemed woefully unaware." (continues)

archive.fo/or9b6#selection-637.0-637.20

NB Dame Jenni Murray was publicly admonished by the BBC for this article following complaints by many transactivists.

I rate Jenni Murray even more highly now having read that! Thanks R0 - good to see you

The funny thing is when I hear the Debbie Haytons and Miranda Yardleys say 'Of course we're not actual women. It's important to understand how women's experience is different. It's important to give women space to be free of predatory males.' -- when I hear that, I have no trouble thinking of them as "she." They have that desire to understand and make room for others that's such a noticeable component of those of us who've grown up as women.

But when beaks like this Carol show up (or for that matter 'girl mode' Izzard) and imagine they can rock up to the group their sex has tried to turn into some kind of livestock and tell women who they are and what's kind and what they can and can't do ... it's the kind of breathtaking arrogance I've only seen in those who've grown up as men.

Who can take their megalomaniac arrogance and shove it where the sun don't shine.

That Murray piece is excellent. Thanks for sharing it.

When she left Radio 4's 'Woman's Hour' last year Jenni Murray wrote about the pressures she was subjected to and its impact.

Daily Mail 2 October 2020
'How I was cancelled by the BBC I adore: As DAME JENNI MURRAY steps aside from Woman's Hour after 33 years she reveals her off-air battles for daring to challenge the trans lobby, Auntie's views and her fury at huge pay gap'
(extract)
"For me, there were no hugs, only a few tears and I simply walked away from the sometimes suffocating embrace of Auntie, with whom I had spent nearly 50 years of my life, without a backward glance.

I was not leaving, contrary to popular rumour, as a result of ageism on the part of the BBC. I made the decision a year ago when it became clear to me that it was time to move on and be free of the leash which, in recent years, had caused me to be what I can only describe as ‘cancelled’.

First came the furore concerning an article I had written in which I acknowledged that I was entering the most controversial and, at times, vicious, vulgar and threatening debate of our day.

I made clear that I was not transphobic or anti-trans. Indeed, I emphasised my belief that everyone — whether transgender or those of us who hold to the sex assigned to us at birth — should be treated with respect and protected from the bullying and violence that so many like me have suffered.

I merely asked the trans activists to acknowledge the difference between sex and gender, a trans woman and a woman, respect our right to safe single-sex spaces and abandon the nonsensical idea that we should be known as ‘cis women’.

We are women. No need for further definition. I begged trans activists to understand feminism and the struggle we had experienced in fighting for our right to be viewed as equals to men.

I made clear that I was not transphobic or anti-trans. Indeed, I emphasised my belief that everyone — whether transgender or those of us who hold to the sex assigned to us at birth — should be treated with respect and protected from the bullying and violence that so many like me have suffered

I reminded them that feminism had fought against sexual stereotyping, and that it was ridiculous to assume a girl who liked cars and trousers really wanted to be a boy, or a boy who loved dolls was ‘born in the wrong body’ and needed to be a girl.

Of course, I was branded a TERF — a Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist — on social media and threatened with all kinds of violence. But what shocked me most was the BBC’s response.

I was roundly ticked off publicly and informed that I would not be allowed to chair any discussions on the trans question or the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. I had lots of emails and tweets asking me why I had not been involved in this debate, as it was so important to Woman’s Hour listeners. You have the answer." (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8799931/DAME-JENNI-MURRAY-cancelled-BBC-adore.html
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8799931/DAME-JENNI-MURRAY-cancelled-BBC-adore.html

@PopperUppleton

I rate Jenni Murray even more highly now having read that! Thanks R0 - good to see you

She pretty much lost her job on WH over it, iirc.

(As ever, so grateful for the living encyclopaedia that is R0wantrees )

thanks ro, and thanks Jenni murray!

glad to have you back ro.

relevant threads:
2018 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448596-Church-of-England-transgender-blessings

2019 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3490724-The-Times-Church-of-England-trans-backlash

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3597926-Revd-John-Parker-resigns-after-clas-with-Mermaids

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3595042-Mermaids-response-to-piece-in-Mail-tomorrow

2020 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3833217-Lent-Talk-to-be-given-by-Rachel-Mann-on-Radio-4-on-Trans-Identity

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3827771-Moral-Maze-Radio-4-8pm-19-Feb-Transcript

Great to read Jenni Murray again and yes Quixote9 they are thinking of us as livestock more than ever now and not as humans

The CofE gave up thinking years ago, I don't know any members who are serious about theology that see it as a source of serious scholarly theological work.

Am I being awfully unchristian here?

I wonder if it is coincidence that Carol's transition occurred after the Church of England allowed women to be ordained?

The thought had also crossed my mind, Gnu. Stone was also lucky not to be in a parish that did not accept women vicars - even after the rules were changed there was an opt-out for a while.

@SmokedDuck

The CofE gave up thinking years ago, I don't know any members who are serious about theology that see it as a source of serious scholarly theological work.

I think it is seen as old fashioned now, but it is valued in places. The curate where I used to sing was very thoughtful and scholarly and welcomed with open arms at a well-heeled country parish when it was time to move on. He was also much less rigid in his thinking than the inclusive people who took over.

Anyway, a bit of poetry from one of the threads linked to above.

I grew up in a religion with religious schooling where women were denied all leadership and decision making...while some strides have been made, my same generation male relatives enjoyed far more privileges than we girls did...if one of them transitioned and continued with both their status AND acceptance, I'm pretty sure I'd need to step away from family members as it would be far too painful to watch. Growing up as a girl who was as smart or often smarter than most of the boys in the room, yet denied leadership and the ability to speak as an authority in church and school is an experience no male has ever had...unless there's some goddess temple somewhere that tells boys their role is to shut up and cook the meals.

I think it is seen as old fashioned now, but it is valued in places. The curate where I used to sing was very thoughtful and scholarly and welcomed with open arms at a well-heeled country parish when it was time to move on. He was also much less rigid in his thinking than the inclusive people who took over.

I know plenty of vicars like this, but they tend to do much of their reading from scholars outside the CofE. When it comes to questions like, what do we think about this business of gender identity, or for that matter most other controversial topics, they just don't seem to produce much that is really thoughtful.

@SmokedDuck

The CofE gave up thinking years ago, I don't know any members who are serious about theology that see it as a source of serious scholarly theological work.

CoE has a long tradition of belief being an optional part of ministry. The position (living) of vicar in many churchs was appointed by the local lord and often went to the third son: the first inherited the estate, the second bought into the army, and the third went into the church.

Yes, that's quite true Tibtom, though not totally unique. But in the past there have been some quite good theologians, both the scholarly kind and the popular kind, in the Church of England, and that has become fairly rare.

I don’t think the CofE is totally devoid of serious theologians. Sarah Coakley and Rowan Williams spring to mind, along with plenty of others like Nicholas Adams, John Millbank, Andrew Davison, Catherine Pickstock, to name a few. Also, the CofE still pays for almost all those training for priesthood to do at least one degree in theology; for some this includes Cambridge or Oxford degrees at undergraduate or masters level, and for others research degrees at various universities.

Also, I wish people would stop repeating the tired old trope about belief being optional to be ordained in the CofE. It might just about have been true in times past (when it was a secure job or the second son of the manor, or for a brief time in the 1970s when ultra-liberal belief was briefly in vogue) but I doubt it was true of the vast majority even then. Now everyone who applies for the job is put through an extensive array of tests and interviews which it simply wouldn’t be possible to pass without being able to display a genuine faith. Also, there are far easier ways to earn a living with shorter hours and less stress; all the clergy I know say they wouldn’t cope in their roles unless they had a firm faith and belief in what they were doing.

[quote Wearywithteens]This gem is the Church of England’s latest gospel:
www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/living-love-and-faith-book[/quote]
It’s worth watching the videos on the living in love and faith course if you have a few hours spare. We did the course during lent with my church and at the end of it we all - from a very diverse, cosmopolitan church - came away feeling like it was an attempt at brainwashing.

Given the church’s rejection of women and of homosexuality it was insulting to have the trans message pushed so hard. The last video showed a late in life transitioned and their wife and it was heartbreaking. Much of the conversation after that was about how that poor woman looked broken and abused.