Pronouns at work...

[truetuesdays]

I know this has been mentioned on here before but where do we actually stand on refusing to put our pronouns on email signatures?? How far can the employer actually take this? Messages come "from above" that we should all now be doing it. I'm not going to.

I'm tempted to just put he/him but I'm aware this is facetious (although what could they really say?)

This is in local government job.

@RobboCop

I find all this 'ze' stuff a bit silly, but on the other hand pronouns potentially solve the issue of people using 'Mrs' or 'Miss' rather than 'Ms'. I've seen quite a few complaints about that on here.

I don't see how specifying pronouns make any difference whatever to Ms/Miss/Mrs. They'd all be 'she'. The only way to solve having the wrong title used would be to include the correct one in your email signature, not pronouns.

I've just had a thought, isn't this a breach of the data protection act or GDPR?

(a) processed lawfully, fairly and in a transparent manner in relation to individuals (‘lawfulness, fairness and transparency’);

(b) collected for specified, explicit and legitimate purposes and not further processed in a manner that is incompatible with those purposes; further processing for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes shall not be considered to be incompatible with the initial purposes (‘purpose limitation’);

(c) adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation to the purposes for which they are processed (‘data minimisation’);

(d) accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date; every reasonable step must be taken to ensure that personal data that are inaccurate, having regard to the purposes for which they are processed, are erased or rectified without delay (‘accuracy’);

(e) kept in a form which permits identification of data subjects for no longer than is necessary for the purposes for which the personal data are processed; personal data may be stored for longer periods insofar as the personal data will be processed solely for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes subject to implementation of the appropriate technical and organisational measures required by the GDPR in order to safeguard the rights and freedoms of individuals (‘storage limitation’);

(f) processed in a manner that ensures appropriate security of the personal data, including protection against unauthorised or unlawful processing and against accidental loss, destruction or damage, using appropriate technical or organisational measures (‘integrity and confidentiality’).

Interesting idea @sashh

Arguably it could breach the data minimisation principle. Unless they said one of the purposes was to make trans people more comfortable or less discriminated against.

But then I would say doing it made me feel less comfortable and more exposed to sex discrimination.

Stop telling trans people what is helpful to us and not. Promouns are a good idea - and you can change how you want to be referred to in a click - when you are ready.

Oh sorry, I didn’t realise you’d been made decider-of-what-is-good-for-trans-people. Was there a vote? Or some kind of panel based interview system?

Stop telling non trans people what to do an show to present themselves. I'm a professional at work that's spent 2 decades fighting against female discrimination. The last thing I'm going to do is effing draw attention to it! I also don't want to hear about anyone's chosen sexuality at work, it's irrelevant, unless you work in a brothel.

Stop telling trans people what is helpful to us and not. Promouns are a good idea - and you can change how you want to be referred to in a click - when you are ready.

The poster you were responding to was not telling trans people anything. She was stating, on her own account, the reasons (which she owes to no one) why announcing pronouns was not beneficial, and indeed, potentially detrimental to her.

This is not just about trans people. Trans people are not the only people whose feelings matter. And women, in particular, might not be particularly anxious to draw attention to their sex given the level of discrimination many experience in the workplace.

I will not be announcing pronouns on any of my correspondence either, no matter how much pressure is exerted. The reason? Because I don't want to. And that is reason enough.

It should be a choice whether to or not, and if a person chooses to state their personal pronouns, their choice should be respected.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Stop telling trans people what is helpful to us and not. Promouns are a good idea - and you can change how you want to be referred to in a click - when you are ready.

The poster you were responding to was not telling trans people anything. She was stating, on her own account, the reasons (which she owes to no one) why announcing pronouns was not beneficial, and indeed, potentially detrimental to her.

This is not just about trans people. Trans people are not the only people whose feelings matter. And women, in particular, might not be particularly anxious to draw attention to their sex given the level of discrimination many experience in the workplace.

I will not be announcing pronouns on any of my correspondence either, no matter how much pressure is exerted. The reason? Because I don't want to. And that is reason enough.

Well, you need to read the post. I am assuming she isnt trans and she was saying that stating pronouns would be unhelpful to trans people as it would 'out' them.

I suspect that I have spoken to a few more trans individuals than the poster and know that, in comparison with the many who find it helpful, not one has expressed that view, which I take to be a rationalisation.

And, for what it is worth, I dont advocate this being compulsory.

My favourite pronoun that I have seen was She/Ra.

Really, if I am asked to give personal info, I might as well go the whole hog:

IfNot
Corporate Drone
[email protected]
age 43
Size 10 on the top, 12 on the bottom.
Straight. Except for that one time.
Two/Sugars

Or, just put He/Him and see if you get promoted?

I suspect that I have spoken to a few more trans individuals than the poster and know that, in comparison with the many who find it helpful, not one has expressed that view,

I've seen trans people say similar on social media. All anecdotes are valid, that's how it works, doesn't it?

@sashh

I've just had a thought, isn't this a breach of the data protection act or GDPR?

(a) processed lawfully, fairly and in a transparent manner in relation to individuals (‘lawfulness, fairness and transparency’);

(b) collected for specified, explicit and legitimate purposes and not further processed in a manner that is incompatible with those purposes; further processing for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes shall not be considered to be incompatible with the initial purposes (‘purpose limitation’);

(c) adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation to the purposes for which they are processed (‘data minimisation’);

(d) accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date; every reasonable step must be taken to ensure that personal data that are inaccurate, having regard to the purposes for which they are processed, are erased or rectified without delay (‘accuracy’);

(e) kept in a form which permits identification of data subjects for no longer than is necessary for the purposes for which the personal data are processed; personal data may be stored for longer periods insofar as the personal data will be processed solely for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes subject to implementation of the appropriate technical and organisational measures required by the GDPR in order to safeguard the rights and freedoms of individuals (‘storage limitation’);

(f) processed in a manner that ensures appropriate security of the personal data, including protection against unauthorised or unlawful processing and against accidental loss, destruction or damage, using appropriate technical or organisational measures (‘integrity and confidentiality’).

I agree sashh

Here is a link helpfully posted by someone on a thread that was deleted.

www.gov.uk/personal-data-my-employer-can-keep-about-me

Here is another relevant link helpfully posted by someone on a thread that was deleted www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

I ignore such requests.

I'm happy to put my name, job title/department and work mobile number because these things are pertinent to my job.

Anything else is my business and has no bearing on my work.

My sex, how I identify, my sexual orientation, disability, race, religion, dog/cat lover, shoe size etc utterly irrelevant.

It's f I'm not sure of someone's sex I use their name in correspondence.

When HR departments come out with this shit it's just virtue signalling and frankly pretty thoughtless insofar it's anti equality and a poor reflection of their HR policies in the sense that any employee should need to "publicise" any "status" to be treated with respect.

Not RTFT

the major problem I have with this is that in many work environments you engage with people you don't know, haven't met

How does it work in practice?

Say I have a call with people from different uk offices and some other countries. And work done by other people I don't know will be mentioned. How does it work? Do all the participants need to look up the pronouns on the intranet before the call? What about externals?

If I want to say eg this report by X is relevant and ?? say... Do I look them up?

In the meeting if I want to say hold on what about X I think (she/he/they) wanted to say something...

It's just totally unrealistic.

And people with names that are unusual to the English ear etc get 'misgendered' all the time. They don't mind. It's just not a big deal.

I would be fine (and it would be easier) to say they for everyone but I understand this is not acceptable.

And it over rides really inbuilt stuff.

He/she in English is in language from the get go. Over riding that is a big ask. I am bad with names and faces. To remember to reverse things for people I barely know is going to be tricky to say the least.

Then you have someone like p bunce. Who expects everyone including those who they've known for years to stop. Think. Look at clothes. Which one is it today?

That is, to be frank, a massive thing to ask.

And people will fuck up. Where's bunce? Oh he was going to meeting room 4 about 10 mins ago. And for the past? What did pb say at the meeting on Tuesday? Erm. I know what pb said but what were they wearing that day?

It's all. How is it managed in real life? Obviously if I work with someone who identifies as male/ female full time I will use the pronouns they prefer. But the rest of the time?

In an international company how is this communicated to people from countries where this is not s thing?

So many questions.

Oh. The interview with pb where they said they went and cried in the ladies when misgendered on a Pippa day seems to have gone from Google.

I won't be adding pronouns to my signature.

I work at a Stonewall champion and so far only a handful of people have added pronouns.

Some people at my work have pronouns in their signatures. I find that quite useful as a flag.

Me too. As a hiring manager I might think, Im not going to look at bringing that person into my team, they sound like potentially hard work and would probably struggle to fit in with the mixed group of men, women, gay and straight, that we have in the team, all of whom are 30+ and none of whom put their pronouns in their email signatures when they were invited to.

I will maintain until the bitter end that my sex, sexuality, gender identity or lack thereof is or should be irrelevant in a professional workplace. 20 years of discrimination as s a woman in a male heavy industry taught me that.

[quote truetuesdays]@gardenbird48 I've looked it up and they follow the Public Sector Equality Duty, they list sex and gender reassignment both as protected characteristics

The independent article is brilliant. I'm going to raise a lot of these points, I'm not really afraid of rocking the boat although I have a feeling if push really comes to shove then I won't get much support from my union. I might ask them about this as well (possibly anonymously)[/quote]
Please can someone explain what gender reassignment is??

That's a good question. it used to be known as having a sex change operation - i.e having penis removed and neovagina added or vice versa. Not sure if elective mastectomies count or counted? But nowadays I think you can somehow officially change your gender on official documents without having surgery?

"Gender reassignment" in the Equality act requires no medical treatment or input whatsoever.

You can obtain a gender recognition certificate which is a legal change of sex for most purposes without surgery or hormones.

@NRCS

Me too. As a hiring manager I might think, Im not going to look at bringing that person into my team, they sound like potentially hard work and would probably struggle to fit in with the mixed group of men, women, gay and straight, that we have in the team, all of whom are 30+ and none of whom put their pronouns in their email signatures when they were invited to.

I will maintain until the bitter end that my sex, sexuality, gender identity or lack thereof is or should be irrelevant in a professional workplace. 20 years of discrimination as s a woman in a male heavy industry taught me that.

That sounds like my team. We’re looking for a couple of people at the moment and I’m really hoping we won’t end up getting anyone who’s into gender ideology.

@NRCS

That's a good question. it used to be known as having a sex change operation - i.e having penis removed and neovagina added or vice versa. Not sure if elective mastectomies count or counted? But nowadays I think you can somehow officially change your gender on official documents without having surgery?

But if I don't have a gender - and I don't - then how can it be reassigned?

If it's just a new-fangled way of saying "sex change" then once again it's a spectacular example of obfuscation and the conflation of sex and gender.