Pronouns at work...

[truetuesdays]

I know this has been mentioned on here before but where do we actually stand on refusing to put our pronouns on email signatures?? How far can the employer actually take this? Messages come "from above" that we should all now be doing it. I'm not going to.

I'm tempted to just put he/him but I'm aware this is facetious (although what could they really say?)

This is in local government job.

Isnt the anxiety yours to deal with and overcome though?

Its not up to everyone else to put themselves at risk of discrimination because of it. I realise that sounds harsh but there's a reason women don't give pronouns, and why they give initials or go by unisex shortenings.

No one can pronounce one of my names. As long as no one is being deliberately rude /spiteful I just politely correct them. I'm.used to it, to me the context is everything, it's not something I.lose sleep over.

I dont think.evergone else should either out themselves or risk sexism/discrimination because someone else is uncomfortable asking a polite question

Following the request of someone who chooses to put their personal pronouns should be 100%. But it should not be compulsory to declare them.

[quote Thelnebriati]Yogyakarta principle 6 is that its ok to offer your pronouns but not demand them of anyone else.
yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/[/quote]
And the benefit of this is that Stonewall cite the Yogyakarta Principles on their website, so you can’t be attacked for citing them yourself.

See I dont think following the request should be forced either.

Someone with autism or LDs would find that incredibly distressing if what they see didn't add up to what they have been told to do.

If i was in that situation I'd be so busy trying to force myself to do what was asked that I'd completely miss what was being said/done rendering any conversation pointless.

I dont think giving people the power to control the conversation when they aren't even around is a good idea

Has anybody spoken directly to you about it OP? Or is it just general messaging directed at all staff?

I work in the public sector, have received similar messages and have ignored them. I haven't had any comeback about it. My line manager has other things on his mind.

Pronouns are important!

No they're not. If you don't know someone's sex it's easy to avoid them. They're just a linguistic shortcut which can make communication flow more easily but as soon as you have to think about what pronoun to use then they've lost that function.

Ignore it and if challenged say you haven't decided/worked it out yet?

If you don't know someone's sex it's easy to avoid them
I mean avoid pronouns, not the person of course....'...avoid using any'.

While we're about it and if I am allowed to ask, what's the consensus on being asked to use female pronouns for a trans woman?

@Lambside

While we're about it and if I am allowed to ask, what's the consensus on being asked to use female pronouns for a trans woman?

I don't think there is a consensus, different views and for some it may depend on the context.

Many will use 'preferred pronouns' as a courtesy.

Thought consensus would be difficult as soon as I pressed post, sorry.
I think I would struggle if asked to do it.

I have the same experience as @Svalberg. Woman in STEM. This pronouns thing hasn't really happened yet (the industry I'm in is populated by dinosaurs) but it's sneaking around the periphery. I've got no problems being polite verbally but I'm damned if I'm causing myself inadvertent professional damage by putting pronouns in my email signature. Until we get to the point where women are truly respected in the workplace, pandering to gender nonsense ain't gonna happen...

I work in local government. Every now and then there is a daily push to get us to add pronouns. When this first started I was really worried it would out me as GC not to do so. But hardly anyone has done it ... 🤷🏻‍♀️I like to take this as evidence most people are GC 😊

@BobbinThreadbare123

I have the same experience as *@Svalberg*. Woman in STEM. This pronouns thing hasn't really happened yet (the industry I'm in is populated by dinosaurs) but it's sneaking around the periphery. I've got no problems being polite verbally but I'm damned if I'm causing myself inadvertent professional damage by putting pronouns in my email signature. Until we get to the point where women are truly respected in the workplace, pandering to gender nonsense ain't gonna happen...

Same here. When I replaced Ms with the gender non specific Dr in emails it was helpful. Adding preferred pronouns to my emails would be unhelpful!

@Whatwouldscullydo

Pronouns in your signature solves this

Why is it even a problem? Who gives it head space if someone assumes Jamie was a guy not a woman. You introduce yourself and get over it. The only important thing is they don't start treating you like an idiot wheb they discover you are a woman called Jamie.

What possible use is pandering to the idea that it's so traumatic or an insult that someone mistook your name for that of a male or female name.

I go by a unisex name. Lots of people have assumed they'd get some guy show up then got me. But it's really no big deal..why make it one.

This.

I thought someone was a woman at work for ages (email relationship), because they used a feminine spelling of a name. Turns out they were a man. 🤷‍♀️

If it is important to you that someone uses pronouns when referring to you which are not the obvious ones then by all means say so.

@Josiemac93

Pronouns are important! What makes you not want to write them? I don't see any issue in popping your pronouns at the bottom of an email.

Being forced to use pronouns is totally unacceptable. It can be outing for trans oriole who are not yet ‘out’ at work, it can lead to bias, especially as females are already subject to bias in pay - think of the so called gender pay gap. They are absolutely unnecessary and serve no purpose. Anyone needs to email me, use my name at the bottom. Anyone needs to speak to someone else about me, use my name - if you use ‘he’ instead of ‘she’ as I have a name that could be both male or female, I don’t really mind. I wont suddenly combust!

@Svalberg

Can I ask a quick Q - I have been thinking about this and would like to do the same - sign my emails off initial. last name.

However how does it work if it's something you need a reply to? Do they just say Dear "last name" or Dear "job title"?

The only reason I haven't done so far is trying to avoid any difficulty for the responder in knowing how to address the email back. My job title is pretty long so don't think that would really work. There's also not an easy way to shorten it without sounding a bit dictatorial, e.g. along the lines of Dear Executive / Director / Head.

@Lambside

While we're about it and if I am allowed to ask, what's the consensus on being asked to use female pronouns for a trans woman?

This is a dilemma. I follow several trans women on Twitter, and generally use their preferred pronouns. The ones I follow are all very clear that they are males who prefer to present as females, wont impose into female spaces or sports and actually don’t have pronouns in their bios. I find the cognitive dissonance massive when a transwoman who does not present as female in any way then demand we use she/her pronouns, insist that they are female, that females can have penises etc etc. TBH I probably would not engage with such people IRL or if necessary would use their name rather than pronouns.

I've got a unisex name which I love. I won't be going down the pronoun email signature avenue regardless of the pressure that could be applied. I have seen several starting to put their pronouns on their email signatures and I don't think it's relevant to work, where I won't be referring to a person directly over email as "he" / "she", but "you".

In emails I am very frequently mistaken for someone who is male (or identifies as male...? I can't keep up). I am not bothered. I identify as a human and I've never felt male or female.

@truetuesdays

And having looked, all of the literature referenced on the staff portal takes you to Stonewalls website "truth about trans" page

Am I being pernickety in thinking that the ideas promoted there could be construed as the corporate viewpoint???

I wonder if we work for the same (or very similar) place

We had the same message appear at work today, but it’s not a ‘must do’ more of a encouragement to do so with a direct link to the stonewall website...

[quote IDreamOfLogCabins]@Svalberg

Can I ask a quick Q - I have been thinking about this and would like to do the same - sign my emails off initial. last name.

However how does it work if it's something you need a reply to? Do they just say Dear "last name" or Dear "job title"?

The only reason I haven't done so far is trying to avoid any difficulty for the responder in knowing how to address the email back. My job title is pretty long so don't think that would really work. There's also not an easy way to shorten it without sounding a bit dictatorial, e.g. along the lines of Dear Executive / Director / Head.

[/quote]
They sometimes use "Dear Sirs" as the letter is to the company, not to an individual... but it would be assumed that they are addressing a man, so it's Mr Svalberg. However, a salutation isn't always used in my line of work with e-mails

My attitude is not to care about making the responder feel uncomfortable, it wouldn't cross the minds of most of the men that I work with to worry about that, so why should I?

It's all just woke pondering bull crap... doing something for the sake of appearing to be inclusive.

The company i work for names appear backwards in the email address bar. So if I want to send an email to TOM Smith I'd type out Smith first. We all have signatures at the bottom of our emails which clearly state our names. But it's amazing how often you will get an email "Hello Smith..."
so personally don't think anyone is going to pay blind bit of notice to what pronouns you've chosen.

Please note I'm not advocating adding them . If I was asked I would refuse.

@Svalberg

Many thanks for replying and that's spurred me on. I'm in what might loosely be described as a global client relationship role so have to take some care. However, I've definitely noticed a difference in tone between emails to myself and my more junior male colleagues. Will go ahead and test out going with initial. last name and see what happens.

Idream . Without a first name, people will just go back to the more formal Dear Mr Dream / Dear Mrs Dream. They will probably default to Mr.