AZ clotting issue affects mainly women

[womanity]

According to Germany.

The German medicines regulator, the Paul Ehrlich Institute, has found 31 cases of cerebral sinus vein thrombosis (CSVT) among people who received AstraZeneca in Germany.
Almost all the cases are reportedly in younger and middle-aged women.

Covid: Germany limits use of AstraZeneca Covid jab for under-60s www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56580728

It would be interesting to know if, for example, Canada was able to give us similarly clear statistical evidence by sex.

@Carefulvulvadriver that piece of information seems to be lacking. I've looked all over the press for it.

The problem is that as they vaccinate the younger cohort, these cases are likely to increase (if what happened in Norway/Germany/Denmark is anything to go by). Many young people have had Covid and been asymptomatic or suffered very little in the way of symptoms. I just cannot see a justification for making them have this vaccine when there are other vaccines available.

Yes @Tibtom I do know what you mean re the flu vax and children. I suspect you are being far more level headed about this than I am. I’m just feeling so enraged right now about how badly women are treated that I am somewhat hyper vigilant to this being another example.
Re children and covid vax however, I was quite shocked to hear it being discussed on the news (R4 Today Prog earlier this wk) in precisely the terms of: children should only get a vaccine where the risk of adverse reactions is lower than the risk TO THEM from covid (I think the context is they HAVE found a vax to give to kids, but will only give it to kids at high risk of covid). Because you are right that when it comes to flu vax, kids basically get it to protect their grandparents, not themselves. I think perhaps the terms are a bit different atm because we have a very new vaccine and still much to learn about it (inc unknown tweaks needed to it to cope with new variants). Let’s all keep talking and watching this. I feel unable to discuss with many friends atm as I don’t want to alarm people unnecessarily, and there are many nuances to it.

The difference between covid and flu for children is they spread flu but are not effective spreaders of covid. The risk in primary schools comes from the adults: adult to adult spread and adult to child spread. So not only are children at very low risk from covid, they are also not likely to spread it. So there does not seem to be any justification to vaccinate them.

I saw an article in a paper recently about scientists (mainstream uk professors in epidemiology, public health and infectious disease specialists, statisticians) whose work contradicted the public messages on covid. They were talking about being cancelled, trolled, attacked, others being afraid of speaking up in support - and of being accused of receiving shady far right funding. They complained that no one engaged with their science or methodology and offered criticism of that which they would respect. The attacks were personal instead. It all sounded very familiar and mkes me despair for the state of intellectual discorse and academia.

Imagine trolling or cancelling someone for working on Covid. 😕

Feelings run very high round covid - you only need to have read a few of the MN threads in lockdown to see people saying going for a walk was killing people. And others saying it is all a conspiracy. People (including governments) take entrenched positions and only want evidence that backs up their point of view. But more than that - there seems a more general lack of scientific understanding both in the general public and politicians. Eg Politicians thinking a 0.1% false positive rate from LFT is too low to worry about without realising that that translates into a class in every secondary self isolating for no reason with every round of testing (they did do a u turn on this eventually).

It's good to see this thread is a little bit more measured than others discussing the vaccine. While the EU vaccine rollout has been a shambles, I really don't think any EU country wants a significant percentage of their supply to be undermined, further delaying the rollout. If countries are pausing, I believe it will be primarily out of patient concern, not politics.
While the UK are using AZ in younger people, they are also using it in the older population, which European countries aren't, so for a given number of doses administered the effect is likely to be diluted.
From what I have read so far the clots are still very rare and I would happily take the vaccine, but it would be really great if we could understand more. As others have suggested, maybe the pill or HRT? I don't think the risk is high enough to disrupt the rollout - that would cost more lives. But further digging and understanding the risk factors is essential.

The difficulty is that to understand more about the risk factors you need more cases to be able to see any pattern. I guess no-one would really wish that on anyone.

It's not even clear to me that the thread title is correct. The recent case in Australia and at least 5 of the U.K. cases were men. They frustratingly don't seem to have released the age and sex break down of the 30 U.K. cases.
That might be a confidentiality thing because for such a rare condition if you publish extra info it may then be personally identifying.
Thus far I'd say that it's far from proven whether women are more at risk.

@Soontobe60

In 2016, 57,000 people had their first stroke in the UK. That’s 156 people per day. Figures are similar for current years. By the law of averages, some of those people will have had their Covid vaccination on or just before the days when they have their stroke. That doesn’t mean the vaccine caused it. If they get knocked over by a bus on the way home from having their vaccine, would people say it causes RTAs? It might sound like I’m being flippant, but I’m trying to show that things aren’t happening just because of vaccines.

Thank you for that common sense.

So far, we haven’t had a single other demographic group with the covid vax where there is a suggestion that they should take the risk for the sake of others

Eh? What is this referring to? Everyone is actually being asked to be vaccinated for their own good and the good of others. There is a lot of illogical scare- mongering on this thread.

This from expert haematological panel says both genders, no clear risk profile b-s-h.org.uk/media/19512/guidance-version-10-on-mngmt-of-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-occurring-after-c-19-vaccine_20210401.pdf

My own opinion is that the clotting events may well be from the vaccine but it looks to be about 1 per 100,000 so the odds with the vaccine appear much much better than the odd with covid itself. Ideally if we are on alert for this syndrome we can treat it successfully. If we can later identify a proper risk profile perhaps some could receive a different vaccine. But basically it’s best to continue and it’s not worth worrying about too much, relative to other daily risks.

That's my opinion too

This from expert haematological panel says both genders, no clear risk profile

They would do better looking at sex

To be clear “both genders” is their wording. There are contact details in there if anyone wants to raise that point.

Could people please stop referring to statistics for "strokes" or "blood clots" generally? The condition is CVST or VIPIT, an extremely rare type of stroke, the incidence of which is (usually) 3 or 4 in a million annually.

Considering the issues at trial were exclusively isolated to women of child bearing age - I am not surprised.

I am surprised it took this long for this to come out when they have been talking about this for weeks with little detail - I was thinking it was EU political fluff.

It might sound like I’m being flippant, but I’m trying to show that things aren’t happening just because of vaccines

No! But sometimes they are.

*Could people please stop referring to statistics for "strokes" or "blood clots" generally? The condition is CVST or VIPIT, an extremely rare type of stroke, the incidence of which is (usually) 3 or 4 in a million annually8

But this condition causes strokes and blood clots. I wouldn't have been aware of that if i hadn't googled it beforehand. Blinding people with scientific terminology does nothing to help people make decisions or understand, in real terms.

I do feel that some of the zealousness around vaccine promotion acts as a prohibition about discussing side effects which are real.

LemonSwan what issues at trial?
There weren't any serious complications identified in the trial in women of child bearing age or anyone else or it would not have been licensed.

It's on the BBC news.

What I noticed was that you have to get right to the end before you find out the risk group seems to be younger women.

With covid itself the fact men were more at risk if serious illness was front and centre.

I don't know how 1 in 100000 compares to other drugs/ vaccines.

Seven deaths in the UK now. ):

Sorry I haven't caught up on the whole thread it's long.

I assume they're considering interactions with hormonal birth control?

Are they seeing the same post Pfizer ?

@NiceGerbil

Sorry I haven't caught up on the whole thread it's long.

I assume they're considering interactions with hormonal birth control?

And HRT