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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Maya on Benjamin Boyce (with a great Mumsnet shout out)

98 replies

miri1985 · 30/03/2021 02:34

Highly recommend the whole thing but the Mumsnet shout out is at 1:02:48

OP posts:
WarriorN · 30/03/2021 09:38

I don't need to spent 71 minutes listening to a pair of grifters to know it's nonsense.

This is akin to a 12 year old sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting lalalalalala and blowing a raspberry.

Women here have read and debated and experienced real silencing for something that is absolutely true and we, as women experience.

Especially major, major safeguarding failures.

Maya in particular has experienced the shite of this ridiculous situation.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/03/2021 11:14

MF has come such a long way. I was at the WPUK event which was pretty much her first time as a public speaker on this topic and in a relative blink of an eye, despite a global pandemic and a somewhat consuming legal case - there is Sex Matters

NecessaryScene1 · 30/03/2021 11:23

MF has come such a long way.

I remember following her Twitter while she was with the think tank and wondering how long she would last - how they would react.

We were going to find out: "can someone working in this area finally have this serious discussion, or is it really totally verboten?"

The sacking was depressing to see, but she's turned it into something fantastic. She's found her calling.

Maya's two fantastic WPUK speeches:

Mollyollydolly · 30/03/2021 12:01

I have so much time and respect for Maya. She's articulate, reasonable, compassionate and clever. The abuse and lies levelled at her over the years and she just carries on, campaigning away. A bloody great woman.

persistentwoman · 30/03/2021 12:28

That was such a good listen. Nuanced, thoughtful and clear. I liked her emphasis on what this has done to once respected institutions with their capitulation to lobby groups leading to them abandoning the law and facts.

MarieDelaere · 30/03/2021 13:02

I agree with Maya that the real gut punch for women in all of this is the behaviour of our institutions, not simply a faction on twitter. Our actual great, democratic institutions.

I also thinks she brings out well and often with a lovely ironic touch the fundamental differences between the US and the UK. E.g. Breaking Bad couldn't have been made here, he'd have been treated by the NHS ... the end.

I do think this ramming of the US square peg into the British round hole around 'rights' is very light on knowledge, intelligence and reason around actual law, history, society and demographics in the UK.

langclegflavoredbananamush · 30/03/2021 13:34

Around minute 40 - she's explaining about how during the hearing they presented that believing sex is real, and that it matters to women, and therefore the right to speak openly about sex is important is a belief and therefore legally protected. Apparently for something to be a belief, it has to be coherent, no problem with the gender critical side. But she also wanted to establish that gender ideology is a belief, and ran into some trouble with the coherent bit...

R0wantrees · 30/03/2021 17:57

I remember this poster flounced and retired to her fainting couch on another thread where she came to "educate" us about science because someone used the term "trans lobby". The horror!

From 2019 thread, 'The Financial Juggernaut that is Stonewall'

"4 core strategic priorities:

•Empowering individuals
•Transforming institutions
•Changing hearts and minds
•Changing laws

Stonewall have explicitly campaigned to remove single sex protections for females from The Equality Act 2010

July 2018 James Kirkup:

Some facts about the events that preceded the Government statement here that the coming consultation on the Gender Recognition Act will be narrowly drawn and not affect the Equality Act’s single sex exemptions.

I offer these facts because some are claiming “there was never any question of removing/amending EA exceptions.” Those claims are either mistaken or dishonest.
August 2015
Stonewall submission to the Women & Equalities Select Committee says MPs should amend the EA to
“remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces”

Jan 2016
Women & Equalities Committee says EA should be amended so that

“occupational requirements provision and / or the single-sex / separate services provision shall not apply”.

July 2016
Govt response to W&E Committee says: “we agree with the principle of this recommendation” on EA exemptions and seeks evidence for “future policy discussions”

July 2017
Govt promises GRA reform “ as part of a broad consultation of the legal system that underpins gender transition.”

July 2017
Stonewall commits to “advocate for the removal” of EA provisions allowing sex-based discrimination.

June 2018
Govt says:

“We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces.”

In sum: MPs and others told govt to amend/remove Equality Act single-sex exemptions. Govt considered doing so. Then govt ruled it out. / ends"

(link includes embedded sources:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1004635839480164352.html?refreshed=yes

"What is lobbying?
Lobbying is when an individual or a group tries to persuade someone in Parliament to support a particular policy or campaign."
www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-an-mp-or-lord/lobbying-parliament/

Datun · 30/03/2021 18:50

R0wantrees

Fabulous. Thank you.

Misses you!

Datun · 30/03/2021 18:50

*missed

adviceseekingnamechanger · 30/03/2021 19:04

Trans lobby/ agenda is quite clearly in existence

Maya on Benjamin Boyce (with a great Mumsnet shout out)
adviceseekingnamechanger · 30/03/2021 19:04

unherd.com/thepost/the-trans-lobby-is-finally-meeting-resistance/?=frpo

Full article here

adviceseekingnamechanger · 30/03/2021 19:05

And if you don't believe it, fortunately the Parliamentary Standards Committee does.

R0wantrees · 30/03/2021 19:20

2013 Guardian
'Voices from the trans community: 'There will always be prejudice'

(extract)
"[Stephen] Whittle, who "transitioned" nearly 40 years ago, was one of three trans men and three trans women who did an unusual thing in 1992: they went to meet Liberal Democrat MP Alex Carlile in Westminster. The unusual element was not the meeting but the fact that they travelled together – at the time, trans people never dared to because it increased the likelihood that they would be spotted and abused. These six wanted to start a campaign group; Carlile advised them to avoid the word "transsexual". So, in Grandma Lee's teashop opposite Big Ben, an anodyne name, Press for Change, was chosen." (continues)

In the 90s, when [Christine Burns] was chair of the Women's Supper Club of the local Conservative party association in Cheshire, she quietly joined Press for Change. Even then, the new activists dared not be openly trans. "The thing that held us back in the 1990s campaigning was that fear of being out," admits Burns. Eventually, she came out in 1995; she jokes that she realised she was more embarrassed to be a member of the Conservative party than openly transsexual.

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues. Although the arrival of trans character Hayley Cropper in Coronation Street in 1998 was one breakthrough, Julie Hesmondhalgh, who plays Cropper, is a non-transsexual woman. (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Relevant thread discussing the role & influence of trans lobbyists Press For Change, GIRES, Beaumont Society, A:Gender etc
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

BoreOfWhabylon · 30/03/2021 19:30

Ah, *R0wantrees, I've missed you Flowers

R0wantrees · 30/03/2021 19:33

James Kirkup for The Spectator
Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?
1 May 2018

(extract)
"The other column that [Stephen Doughty MP] was so interested in also concerned children. In particular, he was struck by the Times’ headline using the phrase “trans lobby”. This, for reference, was on a column that argued that a number of changes in policy and convention are being made at the urging of groups advocating things that they say would benefit transgender people which, the columnist suggested, were not in the best interests of children. “You will understand why that is a particular concern, given the previous use of “gay lobby”, “Jewish lobby” and all of those sorts of things,” Doughty said. “Do you think the use of the phrase “trans lobby” is an appropriate one?”

As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies. (continues)

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so.

Doughty, meanwhile, describes as “extreme” and “hate material” an article which observes that some people lobbying for changes in the name of transgender people are advocating things that might not be in the best interests of children. I have never met Doughty but have generally heard good things about him from colleagues: bright, committed, thoughtful and so on. So I must assume that he was having an off day when the committee met last week. It happens to us all, after all.

Surely a bright, thoughtful chap like him didn’t mean to imply that it was his job as Member of Parliament to tell newspapers what they can and cannot write?" (continues)

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate-#

OhHolyJesus · 30/03/2021 19:42

Ah R0 I've missed you too.

This is what I like to call "R0's receipts".

Smile
MaudTheInvincible · 30/03/2021 20:05

The Cambridge Radical Feminist Network In Conversation with Maya earlier this evening

MaudTheInvincible · 30/03/2021 20:06

Meant to say, haven't had a chance to watch, but hope to do so tomorrow.

nauticant · 30/03/2021 20:13

The fact that you think there's some kind of trans agenda...

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

nauticant · 30/03/2021 20:16

That video was well worth watching. For me it filled in a few blanks of what had happened to Maya Forstater, and what her thinking was. I did like this right near the end:

BB: "Do you have any wisdom to impart?"
MF: "Don't apologise if you've done nothing wrong, it won't save your skin."

rabbitwoman · 30/03/2021 23:11

@Hibari

Nonsense.
I listened to it all. Open mouthed.

I am pretty clued up on this stuff but didn't know all the ons and outs of the maya forstarter case - it's genuinely really disturbing.

Hibari, why don't you listen to it? Why don't you at least see what people are talking about? The erosion of workers rights might begin here, and you may cheer.... But they won't end here. And you might one day wish you knew more about what maya was fighting for......

I have tried to find reasonable and rational people to listen to on the opposing side of this debate so I can get a handle on their point of view. Sorry to say, they all sound hysterical and entitled so far, but Hibari - or anyone else - if you have a great podcast that I could listen to I would be glad to give it a go. Echo Chambers are dangerous places - one day, you'll emerge blinking into a world that does not agree with you..... No wonder it makes you feel unsafe...... But there's no harm in listening to what Maya has to say. If you have faith in your arguments, if they are robust enough to stand up to scrutiny, then what have you got to lose?

SunsetBeetch · 31/03/2021 07:00

Anyone who has seen what happened at Evergreen College and still thinks Boyce is a "grifter" and that SJWs are always right and good? Well, I just can't get my head around that.

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