Good Law project have succeeded...

[Wandawomble]

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

Robin Thank you for sharing your story and I am genuinely pleased that you have managed to find happiness. The concerns that many posters have is how to we identify between individuals such as yourself where it was a persistent feeling and individuals like themselves who struggled through puberty and would have jumped at the chance to checkout of womanhood, but are now happy [enough] in their own skin.

This is a conversation that needs to happen before children are placed on a pathway that will have lifelong effects.

@AfternoonToffee

Robin Thank you for sharing your story and I am genuinely pleased that you have managed to find happiness. The concerns that many posters have is how to we identify between individuals such as yourself where it was a persistent feeling and individuals like themselves who struggled through puberty and would have jumped at the chance to checkout of womanhood, but are now happy [enough] in their own skin.

This is a conversation that needs to happen before children are placed on a pathway that will have lifelong effects.

We have to step forward together. On any reading of the data, denying treatment to trans individuals after rigorous counselling, such as I went through, would be cruel beyond belief. And there are many, many more of us than detransitioners.

Do you think there are about 500,000 trans people in the UK? It used to be the case that, based on the prevalence of gender dysphoria, the number was assumed to be around 5000.

An innate sense of self.

This is clearly something that you feel strongly about in yourself, and how you feel about yourself is your business and nobody else's. And what you do to your own body as an adult is also entirely up to you. But surely you can appreciate that an 'innate sense' which cannot be objectively observed doesn't give a reliable diagnosis which should result in medicating children's physically healthy bodies.

children who hve been expressing their gender identity strongly

What does this mean? I've already quoted the part of the judgment which indicated that the child in this case liked to play with "girls' toys" (whatever that might mean) and was unhappy when trying to conform to "male stereotypes". There must have been something else going on with this child as well, because surely nobody would consider putting a child on a lifelong medical pathway because they didn't like gender stereotypes. Why shouldn't a boy prefer "girls' toys"? Why should he be forced to conform to male stereotypes?

What else is going on with these children that means they need to have their bodies irreversibly changed, making them sterile and probably lacking in sexual function? How are these diagnoses made? Why talk about stereotypes all the time, when stereotypes are irrelevant to a transgender identity?

In children, what is this 'gender identity' based on? It must be based on stereotypes, because that is all they really understand about the difference between boys and girls. So it seems children are being medicated because of stereotypes.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about the rigour of counselling and option-exploring before following such routes, the growth in the number of FtM transitioners and the crossover with autism. But none of that justifies a 'we know best and you must be wrong' attitude to young trans people and their parents.

But you still haven't explained how an 'innate sense of self' in the form of a 'gender identity' can be diagnosed in a child. Nor why this results in their body requiring such extreme modification to be carried out before they reach adulthood.

Robin No one wants to stop Trans individuals receiving treatment, but the pathway now is very different to your experience. Before this is accepted there needs to be assurances that it is safe and beneficial. These do not exist at the moment.

RobinMoiraWhite

Datun
My question to Robin and indeed anyone else, would be, if it's not homophobia (internalised or otherwise), not a reliance on stereotypes, not to do with past trauma or autism, then what is it?

Why are so many children saying are trans Robin? What is causing this unprecedented gender dysphoria in our children?

What is the cause in the 20 families you are personally aware of ?
An innate sense of self.

I was not subject to pressure to be (or not be) anything. When at university in London I had gay friends - that defintely wasn't me - and if I hadnt suffered some pretty horrible workplace discrimination after my employer failed to respect my confidential disclosure to them that I was trans, I would have transition in my later 20's.

As it was, that vile treatment - itself pretty traumatic - put me back in my 'box' until my 40's. And since transition I have been comfortable in my own skin for the first time in my life. And Im not alone. Its not pretending not to be gay, its not some weird sexual perversion (so no Blanchard comments, please.)

And in the decade since my transition I have met many trans individuals and - my estimate - around 20 families. They have, universally across the group, wanted to do the best for their children who hve been expressing their gender identity strongly. The - frankly awful - comments about 'transing healthy children' and the like could not be written by anyone who had met those families.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about the rigour of counselling and option-exploring before following such routes, the growth in the number of FtM transitioners and the crossover with autism. But none of that justifies a 'we know best and you must be wrong' attitude to young trans people and their parents.

---

^ so no answer to my question? Other than please don't talk about Ray Blanchards typology?

I'm not being funny, Robin but I have never yet had an answer. And I have had a zillion transwomen telling me we mustn't talk about Ray Blanchard.

It doesn't address a thing.

This can only be anecdotal

Yes it can only be anecdotal because at the moment nobody is collecting the actual data on detransition so the oft quoted 1% is essentially a made up number. Also if we are relying on anecdotes as evidence the numbers of detransitioners (esp young women) are rapidly rising and they are having to struggle with the consequences of surgeries and medications with very little support. So really the best thing to do would be to start collecting the data so we no longer have to rely on anecdotes and made up or out of date statistics.

From reading around this issue I'd say that detransition in the cohort who used to be referred to as "transsexuals", the estimated 5000 people for whom the GRA 2004 was passed, is low, but detransition is high among those who have recently been transitioning as teenagers, particularly teenage girls.

One frustrating thing about reading arguments from trans activists like RobinMoiraWhite is that they're based on what "trans" meant more than a decade ago but the problems this board are concerned with are caused by what "trans" means now. If this enormous shift in meaning is not part of the argument then it's effectively a misdirection.

@nauticant

From reading around this issue I'd say that detransition in the cohort who used to be referred to as "transsexuals", the estimated 5000 people for whom the GRA 2004 was passed, is low, but detransition is high among those who have recently been transitioning as teenagers, particularly teenage girls.

One frustrating thing about reading arguments from trans activists like RobinMoiraWhite is that they're based on what "trans" meant more than a decade ago but the problems this board are concerned with are caused by what "trans" means now. If this enormous shift in meaning is not part of the argument then it's effectively a misdirection.

I’m not a ‘trans activist’ whatever that means. Could you please explain? I’m a person who has transitioned. I belong to no campaigning group (or political party) and I have never been on a political March of any kind.

I my legal work I have represented and advised equally individuals bringing and organisations defending trans claims.

If I stand for anything on trans issues generally, it is for the sensible middle ground where folk can get on with their lives without throwing handgrenades at each other.

I note that the only thing you choose to comment on is a definition.

Robin - how would you characterise the difference with how you lived your life pre and post transition from other people’s point of view? What is it the difference that you detect in other peoples behaviour towards you?

I have no idea how I could influence other people to treat me differently in life. I am what I am. I do notice that I am not treated with the same respect as my husband in some circumstances. In some situations I have been told to check information with my husband when I am the person running our building project and he has no idea what is going on. I redesigned our hot water/heating/power system (with a innovative, very cost effective solution) myself but sometimes people look to my husband when discussing even though he can’t even turn on the hot water tank.

What are the positive impacts that transwomen experience in life from their treatment by others?

@RobinMoiraWhite

Isn’t a sensible middle ground this: that children can access puberty blockers if understanding of the following criteria set out by judges are met?

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

If children and/or their parents are competent and can demonstrate understanding they get puberty blockers. If they aren’t, they don’t and they children are protected. Would you agree?

If I stand for anything on trans issues generally, it is for the sensible middle ground where folk can get on with their lives without throwing handgrenades at each other.

And for that to happen, it needs to be acknowledged that people can't change sex, transwomen are transwomen, not women, and children are not 'trans'. Transsexualism is for adults.

Stop declaring that transwomen are women and leave children out of this. Then we can all just get on with our lives.

@gardenbird48

Robin - how would you characterise the difference with how you lived your life pre and post transition from other people’s point of view? What is it the difference that you detect in other peoples behaviour towards you?

I have no idea how I could influence other people to treat me differently in life. I am what I am. I do notice that I am not treated with the same respect as my husband in some circumstances. In some situations I have been told to check information with my husband when I am the person running our building project and he has no idea what is going on. I redesigned our hot water/heating/power system (with a innovative, very cost effective solution) myself but sometimes people look to my husband when discussing even though he can’t even turn on the hot water tank.

What are the positive impacts that transwomen experience in life from their treatment by others?

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly (I hold a pilot’s license).

And the cultural - men give way to me in lifts, I generally greet women friends with a kiss etc.

And I am usually referred to by my correct name and pronoun.

All that is great. In many areas there is no difference. In my professional, charitable and voluntary work I act with and am treated with appropriate respect and am known for speaking my mind, hopefully also appropriately.

Overall, despite life’s vicissitudes, I have been very fortunate and I try to give a bit back here and there, especially to aspiring and student lawyers. To my delight (and gentle embarrassment) I seem to have become well known as an LBGT lawyer and so am happy if that encourages those from any minority group (not just LGBT) to think that a career in the law, and particularly at the bar, might be for them.

nauticant

Do you think there are about 500,000 trans people in the UK? It used to be the case that, based on the prevalence of gender dysphoria, the number was assumed to be around 5000

We will see what the ONS comes up with but 500,000 is about 1 in 100 of the adult population. My husband was responsible for equality and diversity at a large university with 4000 staff. If this % was correct there should be 40 trans staff. He made extensive enquiries asking trans staff to contact him in confidence to enable him to get a sense of how many trans staff they had. A total of 3 people contacted him. So my guess is that the numbers are far lower.

Delay until child or teen had reached cognitive maturity. Not deny. Why be hyperbolic?

Men giving way in lifts - what century are we in? Truly? Men giving way in lifts (doesn't happen in my somewhat egalitarian town) is not a marker of womanhood. Neither is friends greeting with a kiss.

No difference...smh...such denial of the lifelong impacts of being born female.

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly

This is why you will never get it. You are implying that these men think you are female, but clearly, you will never understand that treating females as lesser than isn't 'funny'.

It's the cornerstone of a patriarchy which leads to the oppression of women everywhere.

Being endlessly patronised isn't amusing. It wears you down.

(I hold a pilot’s license)

Ok, that does sound cool

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly (I hold a pilot’s license).

Genuine question, I am honestly not trying to be rude but I am struggling a bit with this one - why do you think they would do that to you? You are quite open about being a transwoman so I would find that somewhat surprising.

Genuine question, I am honestly not trying to be rude but I am struggling a bit with this one - why do you think they would do that to you? You are quite open about being a transwoman so I would find that somewhat surprising.

Can't answer for Robin but in my experience working with trans women in tech, they get treated much the same way I do. I once saw a male co-worker slowly try and re-explain something to a trans woman who literally wrote a book on the subject.

Seemed to apply to the bulk of sexist behaviours.

@Hibari

I asked you this before on another thread and you dismissed it as stupid. This thread is about consent and access to puberty blockers. The judges in the Tavistock case set out the following criteria for children/parents to demonstrate their understanding. Do you agree or disagree with these criteria?

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

Hi robin nice to meet you :)

I don't know much about you at all tbh but I do recognise your name and I think you've posted before. Really interested to hear your views.

I've got two things I want to share the first more personal but relevant to the thread I think.

I'll put it in a couple of posts as I'm prone to deleting long posts by accident which is annoying. Good evening hibari and everyone else too.

I asked you this before on another thread and you dismissed it as stupid.

I seem to remember Hibari accusing three High Court judges of arguing in bad faith