Good Law project have succeeded...

[Wandawomble]

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

Yes RedToothBrush I think that is astute and very true. I do not think as a species we have evolved to process and quantify the huge amounts of conflicting information we now deal with on a daily basis.

The level of paranoia displayed here is quite remarkable. I don’t deny this may occur, but in the 20 or so families with trans children I know, this isn’t a feature, so it’s either very rare or I have had a remarkable strike rate.

Robin - given that we have heard this ‘from the horses mouth’ so to speak - parents are visible on film and social media expressing relief that their child is not gay but trans, I find your accusation of hysteria rather insulting.

I assume you have had this specific conversation with the families you know? Otherwise I’m not sure how you can be so certain. Not every family would advertise their homophobia as publicly as some have.

How many gay children do you think it is acceptable to put at risk of being encouraged towards transition by their parents or other influential parties (online groups etc)?

Another similar example:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56503546
Body-editing apps on TikTok ‘trigger eating disorders’

"Over the last year, we have seen a huge increase in the number of people with eating disorders, and while eating disorders aren't necessarily caused by bad body image, we know there are some intrinsic links.

“The fact that Instagram and TikTok are currently advertising body-changing apps will fuel this epidemic of eating disorders further.”

Eating disorder charity Seed said it has seen a 68% rise in children and teenagers aged between 10 and 19 seeking support since the pandemic.

and

Danae Mercer is a health journalist with a history of disordered eating.

She regularly posts about body positivity on Instagram and Tiktok, filming “behind the curtain” videos of how bodies are edited.

“I know from my own experience, these apps can be triggering," she told the BBC.

“The apps make me thinner and curvier than my body, even if I trained all the time, could ever be. They eliminate my pores in a way that’s not even possible in nature. They create a ‘me’ that is, quite simply, unachievable - and they do it all with a click of a button.

“The impact of technology like this is immense, and honestly I don’t think we’ll see the full result of it for years”

She said it was concerning these apps were being “targeted at particularly vulnerable teens.”

“Teens and young girls don’t understand these things yet, not fully. In the same way, we wouldn’t allow weight loss products to be marketed at children, we need to really push for new regulation around what apps are allowed to target vulnerable audiences. Especially when those apps edit bodies.”

Why can we have this conversation but not the one which meantions the word trans?

Why is the BBC not pushing body editing apps to kids on CBBC?

@CharlieParley

How many parents would stand by and allow their child to be medicated with experimental medication that is likely to render their child infertile if they weren't 100% convinced that there was no alternative?

But that is just the thing. Carl Monaghan, in his conclusion stated unequivocally that parents cannot give informed consent to their child receiving puberty blockers, because there isn't enough information to base their decision on.

This court judgement has no impact on that assessment. Unlike in the US, we do not operate the kind of informed consent model whereby the patient (or their representatives) accepts all responsibility and absolves doctors of theirs. So in the case of detransitioners whose parents consented on their behalf, those parents can later seek to hold the clinic to account.

That is not a hypothetical scenario, but something I expect will happen within the next five years.

Yes I would agree with that. It is very clear from his review that there is no evidence and that the treatment is experimental. But there is so much misinformation around the medical transition of children and I imagine that 99% of parents who give the go ahead for their children to be medicated do actually believe that they are doing the right thing for their child. In future at least (hopefully) parents will be given ALL of the information (warts and all) which was something that didn't happen before.

My question to Robin and indeed anyone else, would be, if it's not homophobia (internalised or otherwise), not a reliance on stereotypes, not to do with past trauma or autism, then what is it?

Why are so many children saying are trans Robin? What is causing this unprecedented gender dysphoria in our children?

What is the cause in the 20 families you are personally aware of ?

This is the most wonderful, thoughtful piece on the treatment of transgender children by Sue and Marcus Evans. Absolutely worth your time to read. Their obsevations about trans children wanting to use a trans identity to supress parts of themselves they find distressing reminds me of Richard Hoskins. Richard is a successful author who identified as a woman for 4 years, having facial feminisation surgery and on tbe cusp of SRS before having counselling for the very sigificant trauma he had experienced. His desire to be a woman vanished - transitioning had been a way for him to deal, subconsciously, with trauma by becoming someone else.

quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/

I haven't rtft so apologies if this has been discussed...

Alison Bailey has tweeted:

"The court did not order that Miss Bell’s solicitors be informed of proceedings or be allowed to participate. Instead, Cafcass was ordered to act as advocate for the court. No conflict of interests were identified ..."

twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1375813899434536965?s=21

Robin The level of paranoia displayed here is quite remarkable. I don’t deny this may occur, but in the 20 or so families with trans children I know, this isn’t a feature, so it’s either very rare or I have had a remarkable strike rate

I hope you will read the article linked above. You will see that Sue and Marcus Evans decided to act because Dr David Bell had been approached by 20% of the GIDS clinicians voicing their concerns, and separately a group of concerned parents. You will also be aware that the Trusts Safeguarding Lead, Sonia Appleby, is taking them to court alleging that safeguarding concerns being brought to her by clinicians were shut down, and clinicians were discouraged from approaching her in the first place.

I think LangCleginSpace has it spot on with the list of things that parents should be told in order for them to give informed consent. Since the Bell judges said there is no age-appropriate way to explain some of the possible long-term effects, especially on sexual function and fertility, written consent to say the consenting parent have been informed and understand these facts/risks/uncertainties must be required and retained. I would add to that list:

The fact that there is no treatment that will change the child’s sex;
The current risks (with statistics where known) associated with full SRS;
The effect of puberty blockers on the options for MtF SRS - and the implications for male destransitioners who have had their puberty blocked;
The complications for women of cross-sex hormones, including necessitating hysterectomy due to uterine atrophy.

I have given informed consent to a treatment for me, whose listed possible complications included ‘death’. Adults assuming the right to consent to treatment for their children should be able to consider the risks above.

12. XY came out to her parents as transgender when she was 10 years old in Year 5. According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls’ toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more “male” stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy, particularly at school.

I know it's been discussed upthread but I'm really unclear what this is saying.
What have "male" stereotypes got to do with being transgender? We are constantly told that gender has nothing to do with stereotypes, so what is the relevance here of a child not liking one set of stereotypes?

And the casual use of 'only 'girls' toys', like that's a THING for children. If this is a child that never wanted to play with a ball, a bike, blocks, lego, trains, play kitchen, play food, trampolines, stuffed animals, dolls' prams, magnetic letters, fuzzy felt... there is something else up here. (I'm assuming these are all non-girl toys as they are what boys in my family play with, and therefore I assume can't be "girls'", but am happy to be corrected if someone can provide the list of which toys are for girls and which are for boys.)

I’m sorry to say the levels of hysteria, plain on these threads, particularly from those with no experience on trans individuals or children, about the needs of a very small minority, is really quite surprising.

Can I ask how you are identifying which of us have experience with trans individuals or children, Robin?

Good for them. Well done!

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

I haven't rtft so apologies if this has been discussed...

Alison Bailey has tweeted:

"The court did not order that Miss Bell’s solicitors be informed of proceedings or be allowed to participate. Instead, Cafcass was ordered to act as advocate for the court. No conflict of interests were identified ..."

twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1375813899434536965?s=21

No surprise.

Frankly, all of this is sunlight. The days of unaccountability are over.

I've never had a high opinion of Cafcass in the first place. But this is a disgrace, that is a clear conflict of interest.

I’m sorry to say the levels of hysteria, plain on these threads, particularly from those with no experience on trans individuals or children, about the needs of a very small minority, is really quite surprising

That's not how safeguarding works.

Such an interesting judgment on so many levels and I agree with those who say it has undermined Bell.

I can understand and sympathise with why the Judge kept referring to these matters being better dealt with in a regulatory framework and academic review etc etc but this seemed to ignore the massive elephant in the room - that the regulatory framework had failed utterly. She did mention that the Tavistock had NEVER referred on any child regarding issues around consent. I think it was also worth a mention that the former head of safeguarding at the Tavistock is currently taking them to court for failing to refer children to her.

I do feel quite sorry for the Court of Appeal. They have a lot to sort out now.

I have tried to pull together the various concerns here. I wish the Judge had simply made a decision about XY and then left other matters for the Court of Appeal. There was no independent assessment of XY's capacity before the court. It all seems a mess.

childprotectionresource.online/consent-to-gender-affirming-treatment-ab-v-cd-ors-2021-ewhc-741-fam-26-march-2021/

I think it was also worth a mention that the former head of safeguarding at the Tavistock is currently taking them to court for failing to refer children to her.

Just highlighting this as Sonia Appleby could do with some vital digging.

Just highlighting this as Sonia Appleby could do with some vital digging

That case is going to be massively important in highlighting safeguarding failures. It does seem to be struggling for funds for some reason.

It's a real shame its struggling. How the court can hope for regulatory oversight and safeguards for children in the shadow of this is bizarre. It will be a very important case.

Done some digging

That case is going to be massively important in highlighting safeguarding failures. It does seem to be struggling for funds for some reason.

Sonia Appelby's case has potential implications for the effective Safeguarding/Child Protection of all children treated by NHS Trusts.

Could someone pm me the digging info ?

'Safeguarding Concerns at GIDS'

@Datun

My question to Robin and indeed anyone else, would be, if it's not homophobia (internalised or otherwise), not a reliance on stereotypes, not to do with past trauma or autism, then what is it?

Why are so many children saying are trans Robin? What is causing this unprecedented gender dysphoria in our children?

What is the cause in the 20 families you are personally aware of ?

An innate sense of self.

I was not subject to pressure to be (or not be) anything. When at university in London I had gay friends - that defintely wasn't me - and if I hadnt suffered some pretty horrible workplace discrimination after my employer failed to respect my confidential disclosure to them that I was trans, I would have transition in my later 20's.

As it was, that vile treatment - itself pretty traumatic - put me back in my 'box' until my 40's. And since transition I have been comfortable in my own skin for the first time in my life. And Im not alone. Its not pretending not to be gay, its not some weird sexual perversion (so no Blanchard comments, please.)

And in the decade since my transition I have met many trans individuals and - my estimate - around 20 families. They have, universally across the group, wanted to do the best for their children who hve been expressing their gender identity strongly. The - frankly awful - comments about 'transing healthy children' and the like could not be written by anyone who had met those families.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about the rigour of counselling and option-exploring before following such routes, the growth in the number of FtM transitioners and the crossover with autism. But none of that justifies a 'we know best and you must be wrong' attitude to young trans people and their parents.

@Signalbox

If a treatment was 99 - 97% effective, it would deserve support, wouldn’t it?

Even if this figure was correct, (which it probably isn't because they don't collect the data in any meaningful way) then that would mean that 1-3% of healthy GNC children are being mis-diagnosed and being medicated with life altering drugs unnecessarily. I can't think of any other condition where this level of mis-diagnosis would be acceptable.

Nope. It doesnt mean that at all.

This can only be anecdotal, but of the hundreds of trans individuals I have known personally over the past decade only two have detransitioned. One due to family pressure (go down this route and you wont see your children again) and the other becuse an unrelated heath condition meant they were unable to proceed with gender-confirming surgery.

You would deny the treatment pathway that has made my life worth living and to all the others?

Please spend more time making life better for all than bearing down on trans people.