Trans athletes in women's sports speak out - RT documentary

[SunsetBeetch]

Featuring Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy.

Enjoy

Agreed Minge & Curious and it’s an impossible one to get round.

Women being too kind or too scared to point out that hardly any TW pass does seem to have led to a belief that we can’t tell. I don’t know how to deal with the evident level of self deception because I don’t want to gratuitously upset people even though that same thought isnt extended the other way

I wonder if with people like RM knowing they don’t pass but insisting they do/intimidating people into agreeing is part of the pleasure they get out of the wearing of cardies and pearls. Because certainly any woman would clock RM as born male.

At least they allowed the competitors to voice their concerns. Both the trans competitors came across as expected, all about being treated as if they are female and no recognition of the latest research about advantages of male puberty, and no recognition of the fact that women are being harmed in the process.

It was all, well, they beat me sometimes so what’s the problem. And other tired old trope .

I always find did amusing when statements such as " you wouldn't know I'm trans in day to day life" are trotted out.

I think VI is being unfair to themselves there - most people would guess from the dress and pearl necklace.

Great documentary!

Ivy mentioned about there being no trans-woman who has won an Olympic medal. Isn't it some kind of historical deadnaming to not mention the fantastic Olympic athletic performance of Caitlin Jenner who got a gold in the Olympics? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner

Yeeeaah!

Russia Today has no real agenda, has it?

Or, if there’s such a big overlap- they could compete in the men’s competition. But they won’t do that because they wouldn’t win! They would be very average male athletes, move into women’s sport and they become winning athletes. I don’t know a single person in real life who agrees with trans women competing in women’s sport. Even my own super woke son thinks it is nonsense.

Yeah. Not enjoying watching a Russia Today documentary. Any more than finding Pauline Hanson, of all toxic people, is getting traction from this issue.

None of that stops women's sport being for women. The USSR used to talk about American racism, all of which was true, and none of which made Soviet communism anything other than appalling dictatorship.

Just watched this.

Curious as to the power lifters statements, says their gender is fluid, but says gender had to be declared to compete.

So you can self-identify to compete?

I watched the whole thing and I am really glad that I heard Beth Stelzer and Jennifer Wagner-Assali share their experiences and opinions.

Russia Today only presented honest facts and opinions. That is a very light touch if some are implying an intention to exacerbate divisions. That the USA and much of the Western world have allowed gender ideology to gain such traction that it is causing domestic problems is pretty much entirely on the Western nations involved. Russia just needs to get in the popcorn in.

Slightly OT but on one of the trans subreddit one transwomen posted about how they thought that whilst people used preferred pronouns etc, they thought that people were only using them out of politeness and didn't really think that they were a woman. There were loads of replies saying the similar thing. Who'd have thought that people dont think twaw?

But but.....Of course we’re only using them out of politeness - or fear, of course we don’t think they’re actual women because they’re not

I really worry what people are being told by doctors and therapists

@Biscuitsanddoombar

But but.....Of course we’re only using them out of politeness - or fear, of course we don’t think they’re actual women because they’re not

I really worry what people are being told by doctors and therapists

It highlights the fragility of some and how not helping them come to terms with reality can be more harmful than beneficial.

They have been told, it seems that they can have expectations that everyone around them will actually believe that they actually are what they say they are, it is only human that we reserve our own judgment and have our own opinions even if we strive to be polite and “kind”. Being able to control what people actually believe rather than just what they say requires some serious 1984 techniques.

Lying does seem to engender paranoia in those being lied to even if it was they who asked to be protected from the truth in the first place.

Masters must have sometimes felt rather uneasy about what their slaves really thought of them for example.

@MingeofDeath

Slightly OT but on one of the trans subreddit one transwomen posted about how they thought that whilst people used preferred pronouns etc, they thought that people were only using them out of politeness and didn't really think that they were a woman. There were loads of replies saying the similar thing. Who'd have thought that people dont think twaw?

They would be wrong. It is not politeness that is forcing people to use them...

I don’t know a single person in real life who agrees with trans women competing in women’s sport. Even my own super woke son thinks it is nonsense

Ditto here with my Gen X son.

It's definitely a wedge issue. Which is veeeery interesting and useful to know.

So you can self-identify to compete?

iirc, Laurel Hubbard is a powerlifter.

@andyoldlabour

I Posted this yesterday.

Did you? Sorry Andy I missed it.

RE: Just read who Laurel Hubbard is.

So the only actual requirement is lowering testosterone levels and they are allowed to compete. Wow.

Before now, I assumed they had to have had full surgery.

Massive, massive props to Jennifer Wagner-Assali.

Absolutely. She came across so, so well.

Others, not so much.

Yep Dwrcegin plus that lowered testosterone level is still higher than that allowed for women

So the only actual requirement is lowering testosterone levels and they are allowed to compete. Wow.

iirc, Veronica Ivy (when R McK) argues that it's a breach of human rights for sports bodies to advocate that any adjustment to levels is necessary.

Bearden agrees with the International Olympic Committee that naturally occurring testosterone gives transgender women an unfair advantage in competition against cisgender women, meaning women who were born female, while McKinnon believes subjecting trans women to testosterone blocking violates their human rights.

eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2018/01/11/these-transgender-cyclists-have-olympian-disagreement-how-define-fairness/995434001/

Why isn't there a separate category for Trans Women and another for Trans Men? Then there'd be a level playing field, or have I got this all wrong?

ariela

That is not wanted.

Tbf it would probably also only work at a national level too due to lack of competition.

Genuinely can’t do this anymore, like a PP upthread I’ve had enough of it. I no longer feel the desire to be kind and inclusive and have rational discussion. I want to tell the lot of them some things they’ll likely scream terf about, but would also get me banned from MN.

@Ariela

Why isn't there a separate category for Trans Women and another for Trans Men? Then there'd be a level playing field, or have I got this all wrong?

One of the interviewees who self described as queer and fluid and competes in women’s powerlifting stated that a separate category wouldn’t be welcomed because it would be a denial of status as a woman. That would be hurtful.

I found it rather strange that another participant listed reasons for separate “gender” categories being the lack of good coaching for women and female socialisation leading to girls not climbing trees or being as active as boys in childhood. So I did wonder what reason transwomen who have experienced male socialisation and male coaching until transitioning could possibly have to complete in the female category. I think the other interviewee may have been less disingenuous - it is about validation not about what is fair or reasonable.