The time: how do we stop men harming women?

[ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings]

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1370499733304209&id=494295627591295

Full text on the wpuk Facebook page.

Obviously there's been a lot of people asking this question recently, including a slow moving thread on dad's net atm. But without any real answers it usually just seems to get sidetracked into "how can men help women feel safer?". And whilst I appreciate men taking care whilst walking behind us to not make us feel followed or afraid, and committing to not actually assaulting us themselves, it doesn't really solve the big problems.

I thought this article was an interesting summary of the different ways of thinking about male violence and the relative successes of the different rehabilitation programs for violent male criminals.

The stat on 90% of boys viewing porn online by age 13 scared the shit out of me. I have a 4 year old son and a 2 year old daughter and honestly I just feel sick almost constantly.

Anyway, one thing the article mentions is that the most commonly used rehab programme, the "duluth model", which is founded in feminist theory of patriarchal male behaviour, is less effective than other programmes which are based around building a therapeutic community. I thought it might be interesting to learn a bit more about the different models, the theory behind them and their effectiveness.

Hi, OP. The link doesn't work.

Honestly? We can’t. I believe male violence/sexual harassment against women is split into 2 tiers: tier 1 being the sort of men that are the ‘office perv’, ‘dads pervy mate’, or ‘the lechy guy that works in the garage’ or whatever. The second type are basically psychopaths, these are the men that rape, batter and kill their wives/girlfriends/other females.

I think tier 1 are the ones capable of being called out, educated and reformed.

Tier 2 basically have a screw loose, it’s like dementia or something, it’s beyond comprehension and is more of a mental illness type thing than the result of growing up with low to medium level misogyny everywhere. I really don’t think we can change them, you can’t appeal to the better nature of a psychopath. So all we can do is implement measures to keep women safe from them, and take early complaints very seriously.

Its an interesting article. I can believe a long programme of DV offenders will work but it also costs ££. I'm not sure its a votewinner to invest in it.
Similarly the online harms bill could help, but it's taking ages to go through

Reporting every incident- possibly many incidents are by a minority of me

You're always woking with the same basic flesh. Human beings in general have a capacity for evil, and men in general have a capacity for violence.

You can create social or legal controls to puta damper on both of those things. We have some of that, our society overall has comparatively low levels of violence compared so large societies historically. That's not all that comforting but it's true.

We have relatively few controls around sexual expression, which tends to mean that area is not as well controlled as it might be. But I'm not convinced you can accomplish that very effectively in a society that also offers a lot of personal freedom around sex. There is a way of thinking about sex where it's pretty serious, and a way of thinking about it where it isn't. You can split the difference. But if you treat it casually in some areas, on a society wide level that will lead to people who treat it casually in other areas.

Just as an example, I think restricting porn would probably be very helpful, both in the sense that fewer people would be exposed, and it would be less exposure even for those who watch it. But drawing tighter lines around this would also mean having to discuss sexual material in other contexts - films and television - because there is no naturally clear line that separates them. Do people want that?

The other element is, once you say that a certain number of people are potential offenders, can you reduce their opportunity? Probably the number one society wide thing that could make a difference would be really changing social attitudes to drinking. Which would also many reduce other types of crime a fair bit. But I generally find people don't like those kinds of approaches.

Does this link work any better? I can link directly to the article in the Times but don't have a share token for the full text.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1370499733304209&id=494295627591295&tn=%2As%2As-R

The point about reducing opportunity is very valid. People love to point out that we are most likely to be attacked by people we know in our own homes, but they never seem to connect the dots to the idea that this is the group with the most opportunity and access to us. In every other area of life we restrict men's access to women in places where they are vulnerable, but we can't restrict it in the home for obvious reasons. Every man who is prevented from attacking a woman in a changing room still has the opportunity to go home and attack his partner instead. We can't really get around that, unless we revive the idea of lesbian seperatism (which seems unlikely to happen!)

Projects to prevent reoffending are better than nothing, but its not the same as preventing the offence in the first place.

I can't open the link!! Can you post to the thread please xx

No idea why the Facebook link isn't working! Here's a link straight to the Sunday Times.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-do-we-stop-men-harming-women-tcnwvb5l0

You can search the wpuk Facebook page for the full text if you don't have a subscription.

I think porn has a lot to do with it. The "normalisation" of women and girls being horrifically abused, the sexualisation of women and girls, the way we can be bought and sold and discarded.

Boys are bigger and stronger than girls. Men are bigger and stronger than women. And don't we know it - we are made to stand aside, suck it up, or bear the consequences. It starts from a very early age.

Boys will be boys isn't good enough. Boys should be held responsible for their actions because boys grow into men.

Male entitlement is so deeply ingrained that anything that threatens their superiority to women is fought against tooth and nail. The patriarchy has no intention of dismantling the patriarchy.

We can start by reporting every single solitary incident of abuse and misogyny - whether that be to the police, employer, mp, colleague or friend. We have to call it out every single fucking time, and then maybe the men in charge will have to face up to the sheer scale of the epidemic.

It's been swept under the carpet for so long. Because "bloody women" eh?

we can't restrict it in the home....Every man who is prevented from attacking a woman in a changing room still has the opportunity to go home and attack his partner...We can't really get around that

We could take the partners out of the homes and give them new ones. If we wanted to.

Probably the number one society wide thing that could make a difference would be really changing social attitudes to drinking. Which would also many reduce other types of crime a fair bit.

That's a really good point. I spent some time in Tunisia, years ago. Fairly patriarchal (though liberal by North African standards), but I was never afraid like I have been here because nobody drinks. Don't get me wrong, there was a horrendous amount of sleaze and sexism, but when all the men are always sober the feeling is very different. Less unpredictable and volatile.

Many women who have been in a dv situation know very well the dread of Friday nights.

If we means women then we can't. At least not by ourselves.

Society needs to change. In theory VAWG is the worst of the worst. In practice, in all but the most extreme cases it's. Yes BUT. what was she doing there. Why did she talk to him. Why didn't she leave. He's a good man she must be lying. We all know what teen girls are like. She should have known what would happen going back with him. Mixed messages. False accusations.

And

Well this this and this are trivial. Not a police matter. Making a fuss. Banter. You know what men are like!

Until. That's a one off and he's a monster...

Society needs to change to see it all for what it is.

Legal system, police, CPS etc need to, essentially, be interested. They aren't.

Women all around the world have been trying to tackle this forever. We can't do it alone.

In the end though the fact it's so common, the attitudes so ingrained. The reasons so fundamentally challenging. That there's just no appetite.

It's such a big problem it's much more comfortable to continue as is. Is the truth.

Not that we should stop trying obviously!

Nailed it Gerbil. That is the sad truth.

Are you implying that VAWG is a result of MH issues? Or that's a factor large enough to mention?

Castration? Eh? You're the first person to mention this. You think some feminists think all men on the planet should be castrated? Really?

'For example, think of those delinquent teenagers who hang around outside the shop drinking and taking drugs that you usually give a wide berth. They might attack a woman tomorrow when she gives them some shit back. How do we stop this?'

Boys and girls both drink and take drugs and hang around. Although much less than when I was young.

If you're talking about gangs then young men are far more likely to be attacked. Knife crime is a major issue. You don't think anything can be done about this?

The use of the word delinquents is interesting. Not heard that for years!

How do you mean you were joking maybe?

Unfortunately men who are chemically castrated can and do continue offending. The level of violence can increase as well.

Relationship breakdown is not a MH issue.

Nor is being drunk.

Loads of people have relationships break down/ drink too much/ have addictions/ have MH issues and don't become violent.

So your suggestion to reduce VAWG is.. ?

Most alcoholics and people with MH issues are not violent abusers.

Waiting for evolution (?) seems rather a long way off...