The time: how do we stop men harming women?

[ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings]

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Full text on the wpuk Facebook page.

Obviously there's been a lot of people asking this question recently, including a slow moving thread on dad's net atm. But without any real answers it usually just seems to get sidetracked into "how can men help women feel safer?". And whilst I appreciate men taking care whilst walking behind us to not make us feel followed or afraid, and committing to not actually assaulting us themselves, it doesn't really solve the big problems.

I thought this article was an interesting summary of the different ways of thinking about male violence and the relative successes of the different rehabilitation programs for violent male criminals.

The stat on 90% of boys viewing porn online by age 13 scared the shit out of me. I have a 4 year old son and a 2 year old daughter and honestly I just feel sick almost constantly.

Anyway, one thing the article mentions is that the most commonly used rehab programme, the "duluth model", which is founded in feminist theory of patriarchal male behaviour, is less effective than other programmes which are based around building a therapeutic community. I thought it might be interesting to learn a bit more about the different models, the theory behind them and their effectiveness.

Anyway. I think it would be more productive to focus on what can be done about male violence. I agree, a no tolerance approach would help. Although I think I'd start with rape. Having a situation where over 90% of reported rapes result in a not guilty suggests something is very skewed in a very serious crime. A situation where women could get justice and rapists knew there was a good chance they would be punished would be a big improvement

How much of this problem is about specific violence against women and how much about general male violence?

So many men who commit atrocities (terrorists, mass shooters) have a history of domestic violence. The belief that a man's will can and should be imposed by force is very, very deeply ingrained in patriarchal society.

I'm thinking partly about the violence in Bristol yesterday. I don't know the motivations of the people involved (genuine activists? Looking for trouble?), but I think I can take a pretty good guess at their sex.

@NiceGerbil 👏 👏

I would like women to be allowed to have an electric shock that incapacitates. Registered and usage monitored and followed up.

I think wolf whistling is relevant because very few men would dare to wolf whistle at a stranger if they were male.

This 2017 article (note neutral use of Karen!) is good on how men routinely fail to observe boundaries when they interact with women.

I've not read the whole thread yet. But my thoughts at the moment are that many of us have been highlighting this issue for years and only now is the penny dropping that there is an endemic problem that begins in pre-teen/teen boys. I'm left wondering how is this still being debated and no action taken.

Anyone in their 40s/50s knows it wasn't always like this. Of course there were some sociopathic men or overtly sexiat men, who would never be changed, but there was still a sense of some things that were never okay to say or do around females. It was bad to be thought of as a perv of you were a boy or man, and the bar was set low for behaviour which would win you that label.

It was accepted that boys would want to look at dirty magazines, as they had never seen a real naked body before, but it s always thought of as seedy if men were buying it looking at those. My thoughts are that this all changed in the 90s when Nuts, Zoo and FHM became popular.

Lad culture. It became common for men to speak openly and degradingly about women, in sexual used terms, and if you thought you were one of the cool girls, you'd laugh along or at least you would never speak out.

How do you roll back lad culture?

A few years ago there dad an article in an American newspaper about a programme that was delivered to stop boys consuming porn. It was quite novel and effective but now I can't find it. I might have it book marked somewhere.

First off, wouldn't it be useful if the adult population understood what porn consists of these days. If most parents are associating porn with the magazines or videos of their youth, they are not reading from the same page and don't understand the problem enough to be motivated to speak to their sons.

I'm thinking partly about the violence in Bristol yesterday
I looked at the video on the Mirror front page, mostly people filming the trouble and woman's voice laughing. So some were there.
Women protest and get lots of front page pics if dragged away by police, especially older women (thinking of X Rebellion).

Obviously women were there - I'm not arguing that women never take part in protests.

I'm talking specifically about the violence that occurred at the protest.

It was accepted that boys would want to look at dirty magazines, as they had never seen a real naked body before, but it s always thought of as seedy if men were buying it looking at those. My thoughts are that this all changed in the 90s when Nuts, Zoo and FHM became popular. Lad culture

And also the rise of the ladette. As an example, women can be savages at a male strip club.

It's permissive behaviour in general that permeates it. There's been a fightback against anything that is socially conservative for at least a generation.

I really, really, really don't think things were better before the 90s.

Domestic abuse was widely accepted and low level violence maintained the status quo in schools and work places.

The social order ensured that many victims remained silent because some lives were deemed to have less value. I'm not talking about 21st century concepts of racism and sexism - I mean people in positions of authority were prepared to say openly that some lives had less value.