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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Jolene, and other anti-feminist anthems

817 replies

StealthPolarBear · 20/03/2021 20:14

Just to say this is a light-hearted chat thread.
I love jolene, sing it with a minor adaptation every time I'm cleaning the windows. I have no idea about the background, but it must come near the top of the least feminist songs ever!
Another which I've just heard is sheryl crow, strong enough. "lie to me, I promise I'll believe, lie to me, but please don't leave"
Brilliant song, awful lyrics :)
Any others?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 21/03/2021 02:27

...her happiness depends on having her man, and whether the other woman chooses to steal him

Essentially the singer is telling Jolene to stay in her own lane and leave her man alone because he's the best she can ever hope for, whereas Jolene has options.

HeadLikeAFuckinOrange · 21/03/2021 02:34

I love this thread!
So many varied answers and interesting to hear everyone's views.

mathanxiety · 21/03/2021 02:36

'Say hello wave goodbye' by Soft Cell.

Standing in the door
Of the Pink Flamingo
Crying in the rain
It was a kind of so-so love
And I'm gonna make sure
It never happens again
You and I, it had to be
The standing joke of the year
You were a sleep around
A lost and found
And not for me I fear
Whoa oh, oh
I tried to make it work
You in a cocktail skirt
And me in a suit
Well, it just wasn't me
You're used to wearing less
And now your life's a mess
So insecure you seem
I put up with all the scenes
And this is one scene
That's going to be played my way
Take your hands off me
I don't belong to you, you see
Take a look at my face
For the last time
I never knew you
You never knew me
Say hello, goodbye
Say hello, wave goodbye
Under the deep red light
I can see the makeup sliding down
Hey little girl
You will always make up
So take off that
Unbecoming frown
What about me, well
I'll find someone
That's not going cheap
In the sales
A nice little housewife
Who'll give me a steady life
And won't keep going off the rails
Take your hands off me
I don't belong to you, you see
Take a look at my face
For the last time
I never knew you
You never knew me
Say hello, goodbye
Say hello, wave goodbye
We've been involved for
Quite a while now
And to keep you secret
Has been hell
We're strangers meeting
For the first time, okay?
Just smile and say hello
Say hello, then wave goodbye
Say hello, then wave goodbye
Say hello, then wave goodbye
Say hello, then wave goodbye
Say hello, wave goodbye
Say hello, then wave goodbye
Say hello, say goodbye
Goodbye
Say goodbye
Say goodbye
Goodbye

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 21/03/2021 02:37

I love say hello, wave goodbye, but yes, he is so disrespectful of her.

mayjaye · 21/03/2021 02:41

Girlfriend by Avril Lavigne has sort-of bad lyrics and a truly abysmal music video, consisting of Avril systematically bullying some shallow two-timer's girlfriend to steal him away from her. Real girl power song, that.

(I actually love DP and Jolene; it's hardly a feminist anthem Grin but I read it as her meditating on her own insecurities/anxieties and ultimately resolving to be proactive about a potential threat to her marriage—which I understand she did in real life, though I don't know the full story.)

teezletangler · 21/03/2021 02:44

Chris Martin wrote Fix You for Gwyneth Paltrow after her much loved father died. I think it's a beautiful song in the context of her grief. Really not creepy at all.

As a teenager I remember being pretty shocked when Courtney Love covered “He hit me (and it felt like a kiss)” by the Crystals:

Same here. I was 15 when they performed Hole Unplugged and I worshipped the ground CL walked on. But even at 15 I thought, really guys? Hmm

newyearnewname123 · 21/03/2021 04:57

I love say hello, wave goodbye, but yes, he is so disrespectful of her.

I heard soft cell talking about that album and it dates from when they were hanging out in seedy clubs in soho, I seem to remember being surprised that the woman in that song is male. I may have mis-remembered though.

newyearnewname123 · 21/03/2021 04:59

One from my son when he was a teenager was him hearing David Bowie's China girl for the first time, he actually left his bedroom to ask wtf?!

newyearnewname123 · 21/03/2021 05:03

My shameful singalongs that are highly misogynistic are from Bruno Mars's Gorilla album. Natalie being a great fast-paced song about how he will be laughing in his cell after hunting down and killing his girlfriend.

It's that problem of enjoying the overall sound before you hear the lyrics.

Seraphinite · 21/03/2021 05:17

I was listening to old school Kylie (😳) recently and it struck me that most of her songs are pretty needy. Better the devil
You know stood out in particular - never noticed the lyrics when I was a teenager.

Basically, treat me like crap and I’ll forgive you because a relationship with an awful man I know is better than a future relationship with an as-yet-unknown awful man.

SadlyMissTaken · 21/03/2021 05:19

When Julia Roberts got together with her married cameraman I thought about Jolene and what his wife was thinking. He had kids I think.

tobee · 21/03/2021 05:33

Talking of Andy Williams (someone did upthread) there's Wives and Lovers by Bacharach and David. The lyric is like a parody of 60s thinking and the tune is almost the epitome of 60s sound!

Hey, little girl
Comb your hair, fix your make-up
Soon he will open the door
Don't think because
There's a ring on your finger
You needn't try any more

For wives should always be lovers, too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
I'm warning you

Day after day
There are girls at the office
And men will always be men
Don't send him off
With your hair still in curlers
You may not see him again

For wives should always be lovers, too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
He's almost here

Hey, little girl
Better wear something pretty
Something you'd wear to go to the city
And dim all the lights
Pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love

ShockGrinShockGrin

PeggyHill · 21/03/2021 06:09

My favourite has got to be "Drop that pussy down low" by the Splack Pack.

That whole album is disgustingly offensive but I still blast it when I'm alone in the car. It makes me want to dance like I'm 18 again.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 21/03/2021 06:20

Every Breath You Take - yes, so stalkerish!

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:32

I would have thought that 'Hit me baby one more time' was in reference to American use of 'hit me' such as when you want another drink 'hit me', like 'give me another'.

You can watch Harper Valley PTA movie here for free. It's a lovely easy to watch film.

Jolene is neither here nor there. It's a woman musing to herself and not her speaking directly to Jolene. Her man has had his head turned and she is hoping that Jolene will turn him down. I love it.

9 to 5 has to be one of the most feminist acknowledgements of its time. Dolly is wholly a Barbie doll while still being a strong woman. Feminists seem to believe that you give up your femininity to be a feminist. Bizarre contradiction, but true.

'I drove all night'? Have none of you ever been in love? Your boyfriend driving all night to be with you was one of my dreams. Surely you remember that feeling? What a surprise!

There are other contradictions, but I've forgotten them, but one was a song by Beyonce.

Baby it's cold outside - my interpretation is that she's pretending she must go but actually desperately wants to be given an excuse to stay such as it being too cold outside.

Never been to me? I never knew that was written by a man as I feel like I could have written it myself.

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:35

There's one that goes something like 'push it, push it baby some more'.

Now THAT I hate.

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:39

This is my contribution to your thread OP. It's basically a woman who has succumbed to married life but dreams of having another life. It's not anti-feminist, more an examination of what some women give up.

Interesting thread and discussion!

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:42

I never knew that about Chris Martin writing that for Gwyneth. I always thought of it as someone who wanted to help someone who was depressed and/or suicidal.

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:44

Oh the Beyonce one which I disagree with is 'Put a ring on it'.

I'm of the same belief. Share your assets mate or get to fuck lol

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:44

Because I'm worth it! unmarried

Respectmyauthoritah · 21/03/2021 06:46

The Dead South is one of my favourite bands right now but one of their best tracks is about incestual rape.

"pulled you round, by your hair, people ask I was never there"

"I guess she's my cousin, but she needs some good loving anyway"

They are a rock/country band and play on the stereotype of Appalachian people a lot in their lyrics. One of their band members was recently accused of sexual harrasment. To their credit, they dropped him immediately and put out a statement that they were 'reviewing' the lyrics to that song.

sleveen · 21/03/2021 06:48

Oh and the other one I love is One Direction's 'perfect imperfections' one. It was our love song in last relationship (he sadly passed away). He loved everything about me. The things I hated about myself, he loved and could not understand why I saw a problem.

teezletangler · 21/03/2021 07:01

^There's one that goes something like 'push it, push it baby some more'.

Now THAT I hate^

Sweat by Inner Circle. It's the worst. I cannot understand how it ever got airtime and continues to: "girl I'm gonna make you sweat/sweat til you can't sweat no more/and if you cry out/I'm gonna push it some more". It has always deeply disturbed me; unfortunately the tune is very catchy.

EdgeOfACoin · 21/03/2021 07:05

I think Put a Ring On It is pretty feminist, although I recognise what PPs have said about Beyoncé referring to herself as 'it' rather than just her finger (could this be for reasons of rhythm/rhyme?)

It seems clear to me that the song is about not settling for time wasting men who won't commit. The song seems to be quite clear: if marriage is something you want and your boyfriend isn't prepared to offer you that, then ditch him and find someone who will.

I don't like the Little Mix song where a man helpfully explains that 'you can be a boss and wear the trousers at the same time', thus reinforcing the notion that wearing trousers is necessary to be the default 'leader'.

I don't see Jolene as a feminist song. However, it is from the heart and speaks to a person's darkest fear of losing someone to somebody else. If she was singing directly to her partner: 'please don't leave me for her', we would still be blasting the song as anti-feminist. Unfortunately, most people when losing someone they love don't immediately think 'well fine I'll be better off without you.' They go through the pain of 'please don't let this be happening' first. Once you have been through the pain, at that point you can arrive at Aretha Franklin and embrace the lyrics of 'I will survive'.

Can we at least agree that I Will Survive is a truly feminist anthem? Smile