GC and the extreme right etc etc

[lionheart]

In case you were wondering ...

transsafety.network/posts/gcs-and-the-right/

'In an unfortunate development, in the last few months we have seen a rapid increase in the rate at which practical crossovers are happening between so-called "Gender Critical" feminist groups (which seek to abolish transition healthcare and trans civil rights) and the traditional far right.'

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Isn't most of the violence towards trans people commited by men?

The vast vast majority. There has even been violence by other male trans people.

I don't understand how trans-women could be harming other trans-women based on GC feminists? Do you mean like violent words?

Women's violence levels are lower than men's so they wouldn't be actually violent towards other trans-women. Surely any murders have only been committed by men?

You post contains a number of statements that simply are not true. There is no evidence that trans people commit crimes of the same kind or the same rate as cis men.

There aren't any reasons, and there isn't any evidence, to conclude that a group of male people defined by self declaration don't commit crimes of the same kind or the same rate as other males. If you have it, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

@CorvusPurpureus

Of course the other thing, Bigotry, is that I don't think anyone on here knows if you're male or female, or for that matter whether or not you identify as trans.

& yet no one is trying to silence you, I don't think. Mostly PPs are encouraging you to post & explain your ideas further?

So I'm not sure where the rhetoric about 'silencing' is coming from.

It feels a bit DARVO-ish, tbh.

I haven't told anyone anything about myself that isn't relevant to what I have said.

I think that's fair.

I've been around long enough to know that appeals to HQ to assure bona fides were a thing on a platform where usernames are transient but I'm not going to do that (and haven't linked this to my former account for practical reasons).

On the other hand, you're welcome to look at all the hostility in this thread and others and judge for yourself. I was previously scolded for "not reading the room" because I advanced some fairly basic pro trans ideas and there are several similar comments in this thread (including an accusation of DARVO) which equally seem to come from a place of wishing these ideas gone so usual service may be resumed.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You post contains a number of statements that simply are not true. There is no evidence that trans people commit crimes of the same kind or the same rate as cis men.

There aren't any reasons, and there isn't any evidence, to conclude that a group of male people defined by self declaration don't commit crimes of the same kind or the same rate as other males. If you have it, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

I would refer you to the two sources I mentioned: the Swedish study and an examination of the full impact of the FPFW FOI requests (which are public) which confirm exactly what I said.

I'm not going to provide links as when I have, those with 'English' degrees have chosen to ignore the content of them entirely and make comments about them unsupported by the contents of the documents.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

So asking you to expand on a couple of sentences is unreasonable but your total lack of a response to anything I raised was not?

Noted.

Others in the thread did attempt to discredit what I had said by reference to their assumptions about my nationality. Responding to that does not appear to be providing TMI.

I would refer you to the two sources I mentioned: the Swedish study and an examination of the full impact of the FPFW FOI requests (which are public) which confirm exactly what I said.

No it doesn't. Produce some robust positive evidence that MTF trans people and male non binary people, as a group, pose less risk to women than any other male. Or acknowledge that you don't have this. Let's be honest, please.

What are the pro - arguments for having transwomen in womens prisons and refuges, Bigotryisbad?
We know the downsides for women, documented cases of voyeurism and assault.

So what's a strong enough counterargument to that?

@Yasminelikescoffee

Isn't most of the violence towards trans people commited by men? How does male abuse of trans people come from GC feminists? Do violent abusers often get inspired by feminists?

Violent movements against minorities have often used protecting women and children as part of their justification. Just look at how much attention the UK far right had paid to grooming gangs and how little they have paid to other forms of violence against women.

That of course absolutely does not mean that women are responsible for that violence, although there have been women involved in those movements and increasingly leading them such as Le Pen in France and Anne Marie Waters here.

I think if you are spreading misinformation or inciting hatred towards a minority group, in the knowledge that some of your target audience may be violent - as in the case of Posie or those who have appeared on Poulton's show - then you do share culpability for that violence even if it was not by your hands. As a crude example, let's say someone winds up some local hard man with a track record of violence that an eccentric loner living nearby is a paedophile, with no evidence for that claim. If that bloke then goes and beats him up, then whilst he is ultimately responsible for the violence the provocateur could be said to simply be trying to incite violence whilst keeping their own hands clean. But both share some responsibility for what happened. That's not a million miles away from what Posie and others are currently doing.

I am still puzzled about why bigotryisbad is so adamant that any male should have the right to declare themselves female and access womens single sex facilities. I mean, we can debate the impact and how it all might work out (plenty of examples of it being fine, plenty of examples it is a disaster whcih goes to show transwomen come in all shapes and sizes), but really why? Why should the biological and legal class of 'woman' be changed to mean 'female humans and any male who wants to'? What is in it for us? Can someone just answer that, please?

You really are something else jj1968, you dismiss all and any violence or threats of violence by TRAs against GC women and women as being the fault of the women for daring to attend meetings regarding changes to legislation or for involving themselves in any way with protecting the rights of women. Women deserve it according to you for holding and voicing a different opinion.

Thank you @jj1968, I didn't realise how violent men were using justification from gender critical views to justify physical violence. I thought that it would have been due to non-acceptance of gender non-comformity, but from my limited understanding of GC views I thought that they valued gender non-comformity, but just thought that you couldn't change sex and that biological sex, whilst accepting nonconformity within sexes was important? (I may have got this wrong though)

I have heard that the UK has a lot of these GC views and that there has been a rise over the last couple of years. Does this mean that there has been a rise in murders over the last couple of years?

@sanluca

I am still puzzled about why bigotryisbad is so adamant that any male should have the right to declare themselves female and access womens single sex facilities. I mean, we can debate the impact and how it all might work out (plenty of examples of it being fine, plenty of examples it is a disaster whcih goes to show transwomen come in all shapes and sizes), but really why? Why should the biological and legal class of 'woman' be changed to mean 'female humans and any male who wants to'? What is in it for us? Can someone just answer that, please?

Yes. I am very curious why the male class of people who have historically oppressed women and girls are now so insistent to push trans women into biological women's spaces...especially because trans women already have access to male spaces, male scholarships, male sports, plus at any time they can choose to use their male entitlement, male privilege and their male physical advantages.

Women have said no. We teach our children to respect boundaries. The only right I can see that trans women don't have is the right to move into female spaces. That would give them access to ALL the spaces, male and female. Wouldn't that make them the most privileged group ever? Why do they want more than everyone else? Why can't the males figure this out? Women didn't ask for this.

That they will also go so far as pretend that the physical differences between men and women are inconsequential in sport, lie about crime statistics and encourage the medicalisation of children unable to give consent then they have truly lost their moral compass

I fully agree. The scolding is wasted on me, because I think many TRAs are immoral.

Though some of the suggestions with far right links seem a bit overblown. Did GC feminists storm the capital?

@sanluca

I am still puzzled about why bigotryisbad is so adamant that any male should have the right to declare themselves female and access womens single sex facilities. I mean, we can debate the impact and how it all might work out (plenty of examples of it being fine, plenty of examples it is a disaster whcih goes to show transwomen come in all shapes and sizes), but really why? Why should the biological and legal class of 'woman' be changed to mean 'female humans and any male who wants to'? What is in it for us? Can someone just answer that, please?

You can look back at what I have said in this thread.

All of it comes from a point of protection of existing rights.

I think there is a debate to be had about making lives better for everyone and how we go about doing that but that's not where we are right now.

I've been attempting, however poorly the majority may feel I've done it, to address the campaign against trans people's existing rights. As is probably clear, I think it's unconscionable.

You'll find, if you look, that I don't propose taking any rights away from anyone; even in the case of sports I have argued for the continuation of the existing rules.

I do, as it happens, think there are areas where the advance of rights for trans people is justified. I haven't even begun to form the ideas into a post because I'm not a total idiot and I can see what a hostile environment looks like. The first "new" (actually, most of my ideas as minor reforms) right that someone proposed in here would have to be bomb proof, battle tested and would still probably be flame war-ed into deletion.

"This will be my last response" was about as accurate as the rest of it then?

And for the tenth time, I'm not Glinner, I'm not Posie, I'm not led by them or paid by them or any other bollocks. I'm sure i disagree with them on a lot, I'm sure loads of lefties were in agreement with Glinner when he campaigned to repeal the 8th.

It's so tediously facile to continue this dumb argument that somehow MNers are part of some RW group rather than being women who are interested in furthering the rights of a class of people who are murdered at a rate of two a week.

@Yasminelikescoffee

Though some of the suggestions with far right links seem a bit overblown. Did GC feminists storm the capital?

Trump repeated GC rhetoric directly in a recent speech...

I was going to say that it looks like women were not really involved with the capital riots, but maybe this woman ring-leader had been a GC feminist? www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/02/26/politics/jessica-watkins-oath-keepers-capitol-attack/index.html

It calls for the removal of all trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections and an ending of healthcare except where it limits access to any remaining legal rights.

This is nonsense. Trans people's human rights are protected by universal human rights laws and the Equality Act 2010. All British citizens have the right to healthcare on that NHS. I don't think anyone is proposing to remove those rights.

Did he? I'll have to check that out. Did Trump quote Mumsnet?

Trump repeated GC rhetoric directly in a recent speech...

What GC rhetoric was that please? Link.

Oh the hostility!

I think we're perceived as hostile for much the same reasons a budgie thinks its mirror is hostile.

We're holding the line for women's rights. If you (general you) attack them & bruise your beak, maybe stop it with the pecking.

It's so tediously facile to continue this dumb argument that somehow MNers are part of some RW group rather than being women who are interested in furthering the rights of a class of people who are murdered at a rate of two a week.

It really is.

The constant gender critical diatribes about the woke, and snowflakes, and antifa which oftens extends into criticism of groups like Black Lives Matters, would often not be out of place on alt right and far right websites.

I've literally never done any of these and have spoken up about the use of the word "woke" in a perjorative way. If this is your criteria for being right-wing I think something's gone wrong somewhere.

Trump repeated GC rhetoric directly in a recent speech...

Did he? Go in then what was it

You can’t change sex

Or stop trying to erase women - I bet it was this