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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC and the extreme right etc etc

504 replies

lionheart · 19/03/2021 00:36

In case you were wondering ...

transsafety.network/posts/gcs-and-the-right/

'In an unfortunate development, in the last few months we have seen a rapid increase in the rate at which practical crossovers are happening between so-called "Gender Critical" feminist groups (which seek to abolish transition healthcare and trans civil rights) and the traditional far right.'

OP posts:
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jj1968 · 19/03/2021 14:14

Haven't read the article, but just what you mention here, is next to meaningless. Were the GC materials calling for violence? Because if not, there probably isn't much of a link. Or not a link that we would have to worry about.

Not a link you have to worry about perhaps.

(replying more generally now)

I think the point is that Glinner, Posie etc are actively courting those on the right/far right, and using increasingly volatile tactics to do so - including in Glinner's case outing people on Queer dating apps. Should this result in violence - and in the aforementioned arson case inmay have played a part - then I'm afraid their hands will not be clean.

And they are not the only ones. GC people appearing on Sonia Poulton's conspiracy nonsense is virtually unprecedented on the UK left. No movement has gone near those groups before because they are riddled with everyone from the far right to actual ideological neo-nazis. Who even watches that crap except conspiracy theorists and the far right? Why the need to reach out to them and promote GC ideas within that movement? What are the possible consequences of that?

We are already seeing tactics used by gender critical groups which mirror those used by the extreme religious right in the US - maps of health care providers being distributed, clinicians harrassed, demos featuring graphic intimate pictures of surgery (without the consent of those in the pictures). There is also a growing allegiance in the US between groups like Wolf, who have received evangelical funding, and extremist religious groups - and UK gender critical people have been involved in that. And it is true that America is a different place, but equally it's not just one place, trans rights are considerably advanced in some states compared to the UK.

Much of GC rhetoric is increasingly indistinguishable from that of the hard right. The constant gender critical diatribes about the woke, and snowflakes, and antifa which oftens extends into criticism of groups like Black Lives Matters, would often not be out of place on alt right and far right websites. People like Harry Miller have appeared at far right events. Anne Marie Waters has been photographed wearing one of Posie's t-shirts and reportedly attended the Inventing the Transgender Child conference - a conference incidentally largely funded by Julie Burchill who has been a major player in the growth of the UK GC movement no matter how much some people want to airbrush her out of the picture now she is no longer convenient.

There is an undeniable and growing convergence between some gender critical activists and some on the far right and it is happening in both directions. And it's understandable that a narrative that claims the greatest threat women face is not poverty, inequality, racism, or the resurgence of anti-feminist conservative ideals, but trans people has attracted those from the extreme right. That's straight from their playbook who when not wearing their gender critical hats will claim the greatest threat to the working class is not austerity, or declining living standards, or public service cuts or mass unemployment but Muslims, or refugees, or whoever the latest bogeyman is that is coming to destroy everything about our way of life.

This does not mean that all those who are gender critical are far right, or even just right wing, or even that the gender critical movement is a right wing movement - although it is very much tipping in that direction compared to how it started out. And it's equally true that some like Julie Bindel and WPUK have tried to prevent this, although I would contend they haven't tried particularly hard - and there seems to be little concern about actual hatred being fostered against trans people and more concern that gender critical links with the right makes the movement look bad. WPUK spoke out about Posie's racism but never her transphobia.

I genuinely fear what might happen in the US now, as disgruntled and potentially violent MAGA types go scouring for new targets and seem to be settling on trans people. And those sentiments seem to be growing here too - gender critical thought is becoming an entrypoint for alt-right ideas as the thread defending Andy Ngo on here demonstrates. Meanwhile in the UK we've seen some GC activists cosying up to the worst of the Tory Party and supporting policies such as the (currently being revised) RSE guidelines which are actually far more concerning for anti-racist and left wing groups than they are trans people. There are clearly some who have decided that LGB people or people of colour or the poor may have to take a few hits in the name of preventing further trans inclusion. Opposition to Biden's equality act, which would enshrine LGB equality in US law is a good example of that. It appears to have been decided on LGB people's behalf that this act should be sacrificed in the name of curtailing trans rights no matter what LGB people might think. Those who have said they will now vote Tory specifically because they are perceived as the most trans hostile party without a care for what else they might do is another example.

So I worry about where things are heading here too. I've said before I think some people have lost ther moral compass on this issue, and whilst they may currently only be a (not insignificant) minority in gender critical circles, more moderate voices are doing little to address it. My hope is that as the GC movement becomes more extreme it will be pushed ever further to the fringes and ultimately these links will sow the seeds of its demise. Because the alternative, which is the growth of the far right in the UK on the back of anti-trans sentiment, is pretty terrifying to contemplate

continuallyconflating · 19/03/2021 14:23

brutally transphobic country

This is straight up nonsense
Every large private and public institution vocally supports trans rights
The bloody Cabinet Office registered an interest in support of the Tavistock Clinic in the Kiera Bell case
The NHS England Commissioning body was an interested party
How does this make this make England brutally transphobic?
And in Scotland this rule has no effect.

These lies and misrepresentations help no one
(and as always it seems US mores are conflated with those of the UK)

bigotryisbad · 19/03/2021 14:25

@CorvusPurpureus

I think a lot of them simply can't parse the idea that they if they tell women to shut up, 'Shan't' is a possible answer.

Oddly, amongst friends, family & colleagues, the people I know with this particular dysfunction tend not to be female. Socialisation, it's a bugger all right.

This post disguises its transphobic point using dog whistles about "socialisation" but it's undeniably transphobic: it groups all trans people as one, claims that trans people are silencing women (which isn't vaguely true) and then gets in its unsubtle dig about socialisation to try and other trans women.
334bu · 19/03/2021 14:31

Personally, I believe that the people who have lost their moral compass and promote right wing regressive attitudes are on your side
Any group which chooses to ignore that males, who identify as women ,are just as likely to abuse and assault women as other males in order to dishonestly frame their political agenda is suspect at the very least.
That they will also go so far as pretend that the physical differences between men and women are inconsequential in sport, lie about crime statistics and encourage the medicalisation of children unable to give consent then they have truly lost their moral compass

CorvusPurpureus · 19/03/2021 14:33

Well, Bigotry, if I'd mentioned trans people, or meant trans people, you might have a point.

I thought I was talking about angry shouty blokes on Twitter etc. Many of whom like shouting at, & about, women speaking up for their rights, y'know? Smile

SunsetBeetch · 19/03/2021 14:34

Blah blah blah blah blah

bigotryisbad · 19/03/2021 14:35

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Your one line responses seem more like an attempt at a Duh-DoS attack than a genuine attempt at discussion.

I think it's valid to simply not engage save to say:

Prove the things you claim have validity and I will address them if I want to when you have done so.

You have no claim on my time any more than the smug "make the nasty person who thinks trans people have human rights and they should be protected go away" or "TRA" as so many posters wish to classify me. I'm not American. I'm not 'other'. I was on Mumsnet many years ago. I have 2 DDs and relevant professional skill and experience.

Every time you react to 'other' someone brave enough to post against the prevailing wisdom you reinforce the idea that the GC movement centres small 'c' conservative bigotry in a new wrapped that lets people claim to be feminist.

30PercentRecycled · 19/03/2021 14:37

This bit barely hides its message of: don't let the heretics speak in public! Look what happened in the UK! People listened, decided that the heretics had a valid argument and then they rejected our plans for strict blasphemy laws. Bastards! Don't let it happen here! Resist free speech in the USA!

like the TERF movement that has achieved mainstream legitimacy in the U.K., defining the conversation around trans rights and leading to a rollback of those rights. Last September the British government decreed that trans people lacked the right to legally self-identify and in December the British High Court banned gender-affirming health care such as puberty blockers for those under 16. There is every reason to believe that, by allowing this set of writers to define and shape a media consensus against trans people’s humanity and right to define ourselves, we are setting ourselves up for the same progression in the States.'

My rewrite:

Substack writing is like the mainstream view in the U.K., defining the conversation around womens rights and child protection leading to those rights being retained. Last September the British government decreed that trans people lacked the right to legally self-identify and in December the British High Court added more oversight to the prescribing of puberty blockers for those under 18, which dramatically reduced the use of PBs. There is every reason to believe that, by allowing Substack writers to be read widely highlighting trans people’s desire to define ourselves with no regard to impact on others, we are setting ourselves up for increased women's rights and child protection safeguards to be introduced in the States.

Gingernaut · 19/03/2021 14:39

The joke is, many far right and extremely religious people support transition rather than have gay children or people.

people.com/politics/missouri-dad-gives-viral-testimony-about-transgender-athlete-daughter/

bigotryisbad · 19/03/2021 14:43

@CorvusPurpureus

Well, Bigotry, if I'd mentioned trans people, or meant trans people, you might have a point.

I thought I was talking about angry shouty blokes on Twitter etc. Many of whom like shouting at, & about, women speaking up for their rights, y'know? Smile

A large part of any dog whistle is using them deniably...

Which is exactly what you've done here.

You may be entirely innocently using language in a way common among people trying to silence and 'other' trans people; but the effect on a trans hostile board like this is still to create distance to enable greater hatred.

MarshaBradyo · 19/03/2021 14:44

More trying to silence women

allmywhat · 19/03/2021 14:44

Asking for evidence is transphobic and bigoted (and somehow akin to a DoS attack?)

Telling women that they're bigots who should shut up and refusing to back up your claims is "brave."

Objecting to being labelled a bigot is "othering."

It's genuinely interesting.

bigotryisbad · 19/03/2021 14:44

@SunsetBeetch

Blah blah blah blah blah

Yes. The GC movement does tend towards hectoring and attempts to stifle any debate about their more unsavoury connections and roots.

Thanks for the undeniable proof.

Deliriumoftheendless · 19/03/2021 14:45

No one here has ever argued trans people should be denied human rights.

What is argued is that women’s rights should be defended.

No one has a right to participate in sport for the opposite sex. No one has the right to use a changing room for the opposite sex.

CorvusPurpureus · 19/03/2021 14:50

That sounds an awful lot like tone policing & scolding women, Bigotry.

If you don't want to debate, don't. But women aren't going to shut up talking because you tell them to.

Which is basically where I came in.

30PercentRecycled · 19/03/2021 14:50

Trans-hostile and woman-respecting are not the same. If you think they are Big then that says more about you than us.

It is a fact that every transwoman is a biologically male. In the UK most are late transitioning older men (not children). Thus they have lived their lives benefiting from a patriarchy where women are supposed to defer to men. It would be incredibly surprising if the learned expectations were not retained upon transition. Even if you do believe in lady brain then surely you can see how this life experience would affect their default behaviours post transition?

FluffyHippo · 19/03/2021 14:55

@bigotryisbad

Here’s a link to the submission to the Parliamentary Enquiry they mention:

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17510/pdf/

It calls for the removal of all trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections and an ending of healthcare except where it limits access to any remaining legal rights.

It’s deeply transphobic and entirely unjustifiable. It’s not even the closest ties between GC campaigners and attacks on trans people.

If you read the article there are direct links between ‘mainstream GC’ people and violent attacks on trans people. An arsonist had literally shared GC materials as part of the justification for his attack.

The links do discredit a movement which was founded on an antisemitic conspiracy theory and works with and for the far right to attack a minority. Claiming otherwise just shows that the links (which are clearly there) are simply acceptable to the entire GC movement rather than being some fringe accident.

Bollocks! Do you think we can't read? Some of us even have degrees in English...
CorvusPurpureus · 19/03/2021 14:55

Of course the other thing, Bigotry, is that I don't think anyone on here knows if you're male or female, or for that matter whether or not you identify as trans.

& yet no one is trying to silence you, I don't think. Mostly PPs are encouraging you to post & explain your ideas further?

So I'm not sure where the rhetoric about 'silencing' is coming from.

It feels a bit DARVO-ish, tbh.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2021 15:00

Oh of course. Anything you don't like is a "dog whistle".

Yasminelikescoffee · 19/03/2021 15:01

Isn't most of the violence towards trans people commited by men? How does male abuse of trans people come from GC feminists? Do violent abusers often get inspired by feminists?

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 19/03/2021 15:04

[quote bigotryisbad]@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Your one line responses seem more like an attempt at a Duh-DoS attack than a genuine attempt at discussion.

I think it's valid to simply not engage save to say:

Prove the things you claim have validity and I will address them if I want to when you have done so.

You have no claim on my time any more than the smug "make the nasty person who thinks trans people have human rights and they should be protected go away" or "TRA" as so many posters wish to classify me. I'm not American. I'm not 'other'. I was on Mumsnet many years ago. I have 2 DDs and relevant professional skill and experience.

Every time you react to 'other' someone brave enough to post against the prevailing wisdom you reinforce the idea that the GC movement centres small 'c' conservative bigotry in a new wrapped that lets people claim to be feminist. [/quote]
Your post contained a large number of assertions. It's not up to other posters to provide evidence either way.

I'm not quite sure why asking questions is seen as othering. I neither knew nor cared about your nationality, whether you had children or how long you'd been on Mumsnet. I was asking for proof of what you claimed.

If I have no claim on your time, you also have no claim on mine. And I shall treat your baseless claims with the contempt they deserve.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2021 15:04

Isn't most of the violence towards trans people commited by men?

The vast vast majority. There has even been violence by other male trans people.

bigotryisbad · 19/03/2021 15:05

@334bu

Personally, I believe that the people who have lost their moral compass and promote right wing regressive attitudes are on your side Any group which chooses to ignore that males, who identify as women ,are just as likely to abuse and assault women as other males in order to dishonestly frame their political agenda is suspect at the very least. That they will also go so far as pretend that the physical differences between men and women are inconsequential in sport, lie about crime statistics and encourage the medicalisation of children unable to give consent then they have truly lost their moral compass

You post contains a number of statements that simply are not true. There is no evidence that trans people commit crimes of the same kind or the same rate as cis men.

The infamous 'Swedish Study' on which such claims are based quite literally proves the reverse.

Even FPFW's 'research' on the matter actually uncovered the fact that trans people are considerably less likely to be in prison than cis people, although further studies on why are clearly needed.

As for:

That they will also go so far as pretend that the physical differences between men and women are inconsequential in sport

I'm not actually sure what you're trying to say. All I have pointed out is that the IOC and other sporting bodies (who are entitled to set out rules for fair competition) have shown that safe trans integration has worked over a considerable period. Any contrary claims have to address that fact or be honest about their basis in bigotry.

lie about crime statistics

You are welcome to point out any lies in anything I have said about crime statistics but as I have only addressed you inferred use of the Swedish study and FPFW's biased reporting in this post, I'm sure that there aren't any.

and encourage the medicalisation of children unable to give consent

The Tavistock case is under appeal. The fact that the 'experts' against trans healthcare were all drawn from US religious groups is a concern which will need to be addressed.

More worrisome, to me, is that the lead lawyer has a long and shameful history of using these same arguments to both force women to keep unwanted pregnancies (he acted for the father in that case and it remains one of the least feminist legal actions of all time) and to further decrease access to abortion and reproductive healthcare.

This isn't some victory for feminism; it's an attack on access to contraception as was stated by Bell's legal team during the case.

Until the appeal is resolved, I think basing a take-down on its flawed science (one of the experts in the case's own professional society is appealing as they've stated he misrepresented the evidence that far) would be akin so someone coming to Mumsnet to spam post the quote relating to Maya Forstater’s view of sex being ‘not worthy of respect in democratic society’.

Yes, it can be done, but as the case is far from over and vast swathes continue to be contested but the lawyers....

It doesn't add anything at all, except to the partisan jeering.

You clearly feel strongly that you are threatened by trans people, but I'm genuinely unconvinced that even if everything you said was true it could ever justify removing human rights from people.

bigotryisbad · 19/03/2021 15:10

@30PercentRecycled

Trans-hostile and woman-respecting are not the same. If you think they are Big then that says more about you than us.

It is a fact that every transwoman is a biologically male. In the UK most are late transitioning older men (not children). Thus they have lived their lives benefiting from a patriarchy where women are supposed to defer to men. It would be incredibly surprising if the learned expectations were not retained upon transition. Even if you do believe in lady brain then surely you can see how this life experience would affect their default behaviours post transition?

Do you have any basis for that claim at all?

I'm aware that there's a trope of infantilising trans men (even when they're 34 and been seriously considering this since they were nine like Elliot Page who has this week been accused of Rapid onset over a mere 25 years) and claiming that trans women are all older people who have 'benefited from the patriarchy' but there's no evidence to back this up that I've ever seen.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2021 15:11

If you don't want to debate, don't. But women aren't going to shut up talking because you tell them to.

This. And we'll draw conclusions about anything as we see fit.