How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

I dislike BAME too.

Op, I've learnt that it's very difficult to get into hierarchical debates about privilege. It becomes a complicated game of top trumps, who is more oppressed, and it doesn't really serve any one.

It's important to recognise that there are many factors at play disadvantaging women and girls, due to personal, social, cultural and religious contexts. That's real, original intersectional feminism.

There was a guest thread last week by two Jewish women describing how their lives had been and by chance finding via mn that it wasn't normal or right to be treated in that way.

We just keep reading and sharing and highlighting.

Other example is that I don't believe this shooting is purely race or coronavirus based. Atlanta shootings: Asian women among eight killed at three spas www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56424616

@continuallyconflating

Why would that be the case if you didn't think it was untrue?

So you missed the bit about working class Scottish women having the worst life expectancy and health outcomes in Western Europe?

Where does that "fact" come from?

What do you mean by "working class"?

I'm fairly certain the group in Scotland with the worst life expectancy are men in certain deprived areas , mainly Glasgow , who are part of the non- working class.

@DresdenChina

Having the 'right' skin colour has nothing to do with being able to 'do' Feminism effectively. Feminism already is inclusive, it's for all women. I just cannot with this performative hand wringing that has it's basis in the completely toxic Identity politics poisening Europe from the US.

Liberal third wave Identity politics and intersectionalism that rates how high you are on the totem pole of importance depending on how many claims of oppression you have ON TOP of being a woman is not Feminism, claiming that somehow all white woman have lived in a fucking utopia of equality for being white is part of this, feeling you have to integrate racism or any other issues that may affect women when there are many groups already dealing with racism is part of that. Do you see BLM centering womens issues? no you bloody dont, why is it always womens groups being expected to do all the work?! and dont come back at me with any intersectionlism arguments, read up, it was an academic legal argument that has no place in the real world but you won't get peopel like Kimberlé Crenshaw admitting this - its a world wide industry that she and her fellow academics intend to dine out on for a long time while the world burns.

Its why you get women without any sense of decency going onto the vigil threads telling women, 'well black women have always felt like this' as if it was only when this happened that mysolgyny suddenly started happening to women who were not black.

The end game for Identity Politics is FRACTURE OF GROUPS into ineffective balkansisation and inter fighting. Being a woman is NOT a priviledged position on this planet full stop. Dont bother clapping back at me this place is becoming far to third wave for me I'm out and i say that as someone who has several instances of 'intersection'

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I think a lot of the reason that Feminism can seem to be for privileged white women is because of the way it’s presented in the media. It has a disgustingly commercial “female empowerment” vibe which is more about running in high-heels and bolstering consumerism than authentic feminism.

As Black women suffer an even more marginalised, fetishised and stereotyped representation on screen I would have thought this would be a natural extension of feminism.

Also dead black women don’t bring the same sympathy factor in reporting (according to the newspapers obviously). This too is part of wider feminism because it’s about the media deciding whose stories matter and whose don’t.

I have often thought that less.

Hate the karen meme because it's misogyny. Don't say it's racist.

If you are a regular commenter on the Feminism boards then one thing you could do is to think how to make the conversation more inclusive. It's well known this is the most intimidating section of the site, with people being sneered at for getting terminology wrong or daring to express an opinion that is out of step with the Feminism board. Yes, we get you are all very clever, impressive women - well done. But very poor at making what should be for every woman feel inclusive and welcoming. If posters here don't think that's their job (why is it always a woman's work), then also don't bother wondering why so many people don't engage with your activism.

@FluffyHippo

how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric.

Accept that transwomen are women? Or is that the wrong kind of inclusivity?

Telling women to accept the belief that born males are part of the sex class of women wouldn’t make feminism more inclusive, no.

I come to these threads to read and learn.
But - I say this kindly - I see a degree of argument sometimes that reflects behaviours not conducive to mutual understanding. I don't fully understand intersectionality myself, which is why I do want to learn more.
It strikes me (white woman, working class background but probably now perceived as middle class) that class and race in the UK make for complicated patterns in terms of who has better access to resources and information.
Disadvantages crop up in lots of ways which the non- disadvantaged may not see.
For me, feminism should include all women. But I do understand that some women may feel excluded, or that there are barriers that I can't see.
I think the media have a lot to answer for in terms of what gets mass production/exposure and the bias is very white. The difference in reporting of recent events in particular.

Sorry you don't feel welcome, but as someone who has no background in the study of feminist theory I have never felt sneered at when I get the terminology wrong . Sometimes there are terms used which I don't understand but people have very kindly explained them to me. Yes there are very clever women posting here but most are just ordinary people who have been shocked to see some of the rights women fought so hard for being attacked.

Interesting.

Very interesting.

Radfems, socialist feminists, and Marxist feminists are pretty inclusive when it comes to class.

It's the middle class Libfems who are all about opening prisons and DV shelters to men - the sort of places they'll never find themselves in.

@continuallyconflating

Do you believe those women on schemes don't include black women or something?

Are you aware how white Scotland is outside Glasgow and Edinburgh?
Perhaps not.
Or how well integrated and affluent both the Scottish Pakistani and Chinese communities are?
And how truly fucked some Scottish towns and villages are in the Central belt?

Scottish working class women carry the generational legacy of their communities being used by the British Empire to provide coal, steel, ships and men for the Empire
These scars are still there.
These are living breathing woman who as a class have the worst health outcomes, the worse social indicators and the lowest life expectancy in Western Europe
And they're white
Please, please stop trying to erase them in the name of some fictional suffering other

Thank you for this.

@334bu I think it is the tone of the board that I am talking about. To me there is a sense of some women looking down on others and patting themselves on the back. I see ideas from other women or people in the media belittled and it feels like unless you are totally on board with everything said you might as well not be here. Rather than feeling unwelcome, it mainly makes me feel irritated and sad - feminism should be for everyone. I don't think it's the right message to give, and I am sure it doesn't help in extending the reach of feminism.

@SirChing

But women have to fix other peoples oxygen masks before they can put their own on

Which implies that black or BAME women are somehow "other", instead of women who also need to put their own masks on first too!

Don't you realise how incredibly much that defaults to a place of white privilege?

Feminism should be available to all women. For as long as white, MC feminists decide that THEY are the ones who get to set the agenda about what is important at the minute, then racism and exclusion within feminism will exist.

By women I mean all women. And by other people I mean people who are not women.

I think feminism is about women tackling patriarchy, and I see no other progressive movement which asks it's members not to put themselves at the centre.

Is it just feminism that should be intersectional?

@SirChing I was quoting the original message, not your reply. My reply echoes the same sentiments as yours did - I 100% agree with you!

Feminism is for everyone but that doesn't mean i have to agree with someone just because they are female .

It doesn't mean women can't have strong opinions.

It doesn't mean that every woman is assumed to be correct in their opinion.

If you regularly find yourself drowned out in opposing views, one should look more carefully at those views . Not least because if you understand why people disagree you have a chance to correct that understanding if they are wrong

I think feminism is about women tackling patriarchy, and I see no other progressive movement which asks it's members not to put themselves at the centre.

Feminism is about far more than "tackling the patriarchy" and the fact you think that there are no other layers to it shows exactly how privileged your views are

For example:
Black mothers are 4x likely to die during childbirth
FGM
Child marriage
Slave labour
Trans inclusion

No one is asking to place themselves in the centre of the movement, they're just asking for any and all women to be included and represented in issues that effect women. It's really quite simple

Feminism isn't only about the anti-trans agenda or the gender pay gap, and that's exactly why the OP is asking how we can be more inclusive (NOT debating whether we are inclusive enough)

Just going to plug my thread again...

Grassroots organisations who could do with your inclusive money.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4184062-Feminist-goals-and-organisations-which-are-working-towards-them

Trans inclusion, nah. See eleventy billion other threads why.

The issues you list about slave labour, fgm etc are extremely important within feminism because they directly impact women and girls. Feminists all over the world are working to address them, with the full support of absolutely everyone on FWR unless I've missed something.

Are any other progressive movements intersectional?

But please pledge your inclusive money to help with FGM, and forced marriage. I have a list of proposed recipients!

Talk to me about the similarities between the oppression experienced by women of all races and sociology-economic backgrounds because of their sex and the oppression experienced by Transwomen baby. I'd like to know more about what you think feminism is and what it's for...

Socio-economic

and there we have it.....if your feminism doenst include men its not feminism