Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

There are parallels. Pain is centrally mediated but peripherally initiated and can be charted. Not like acute pain but perhaps like a chronic pain schema emeshment model yes. I think identities and concepts of gender are probably a form of schema, and chronic pain is also an example of a schema.

Being trans does not show up in brain scans

Trauma does

Grief if we could identify trans with brain scans it would be useful

I think the insistence that everyone must have a gender identity, even if they don't know it plays a very important function in the TRA worldview, because it normalises and de-pathologises the trans experience.

If a gender identity is something that is usually only experienced by trans people alongside gender dysphoria/euphoria, it leaves these phenomena open to being regarded as a disordered mental states in need of psychological intervention.

If a gender identity is the norm, it's a much smaller small conceptual leap to the idea that some people's gender identity doesn't fit the one usually associated with their sex. It removes gender dysphoria/euphoria from the realms of psychological disorder to just a variant of normal experience, and therefore makes it harder to present psychological intervention as the most appropriate way of responding to it.

We protect people from homophobic persecution regardless of whether or not they are actually gay. It is the behaviour of the perpetrator that is the issue not the victim.

Also; before sexist stereotypes became discouraged and frowned upon, has anyone else noticed that people purporting to be trans only ever talked about wanting to dress in ‘women’s’ clothes, wear make up etc? They never mentioned some inner essence or anything along those lines. The spiritual ‘lady brain’ stuff only popped up once it became clear that sexist stereotypes do not a woman make.

If "yes" feels like the right answer to "are you a woman?" you're stating your gender identity.

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

When boys are given a "sex change" shortly after birth and raised as girls with no knowledge of their male past, most still state that they feel male. That's gender identity:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421517/

When a tomboy dresses and plays "like a boy", she doesn't think she actually is a boy. That's true for cis tomboys and trans tomboys. That's because her gender identity is female.

It's an entirely uncontroversial aspect of human identity - no serious scientists question its existence, they just study it's causes and effects, and look for its markers in brain scans etc.

www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

Hopefully they will be able to do that for trans kids one day which will enable them to go straight to cross-sex hormones at the start of puberty rather than delaying with blockers.

And, here again is the complete disregard for the increased health risks for female transitioners. Particularly in regards to puberty blockers.

When will mature adults start to understand that if they have transitioned as an adult, that they are effectively advocating for children to grow up to a life with a very high risk of not having a sex life that involves having an orgasm, other health risks, but also a life without children of their own.

It is quite significant that three high court judges made the decision unanimously that people under 15 cannot consent, and that people under 17 are unlikely to consent.

It has also been shown that the Tavistock, with the potential to draw on global research, could not provide any evidence that the benefits associated with puberty blockers outweigh the health risks. If it cannot withstand presentation as evidence to three high court judges, it is clear that the studies are not robust enough.

This cannot be said often enough.

@MinnieMous3

Also; before sexist stereotypes became discouraged and frowned upon, has anyone else noticed that people purporting to be trans only ever talked about wanting to dress in ‘women’s’ clothes, wear make up etc? They never mentioned some inner essence or anything along those lines. The spiritual ‘lady brain’ stuff only popped up once it became clear that sexist stereotypes do not a woman make.

Not all trans people are gender-conforming. You need to listen to more trans people because your post has confirmation bias written all over it.

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

Yes because I have lived in a biologically female body my whole life and got used to it.

A transwoman has never inhabited a female body.

So that’s a non starter.

@Helleofabore

Hopefully they will be able to do that for trans kids one day which will enable them to go straight to cross-sex hormones at the start of puberty rather than delaying with blockers.

And, here again is the complete disregard for the increased health risks for female transitioners. Particularly in regards to puberty blockers.

When will mature adults start to understand that if they have transitioned as an adult, that they are effectively advocating for children to grow up to a life with a very high risk of not having a sex life that involves having an orgasm, other health risks, but also a life without children of their own.

It is quite significant that three high court judges made the decision unanimously that people under 15 cannot consent, and that people under 17 are unlikely to consent.

It has also been shown that the Tavistock, with the potential to draw on global research, could not provide any evidence that the benefits associated with puberty blockers outweigh the health risks. If it cannot withstand presentation as evidence to three high court judges, it is clear that the studies are not robust enough.

This cannot be said often enough.

"It is quite significant that three high court judges made the decision unanimously..."

Well, at least that means you agree with the Judge that said that Maya Forstater's views were "not worthy of respect in democratic society".

@Shizuku

Is it just a huge coincidence then that upon becoming trans, most transwomen grow their hair long, start wearing ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most transmen cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? If gender identity was not related to sexist stereotypes, is that just a massive coincidence?

@MinnieMous3

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

Yes because I have lived in a biologically female body my whole life and got used to it.

A transwoman has never inhabited a female body.

So that’s a non starter.

"Yes because I have lived in a biologically female body my whole life and got used to it."

You are literally stating that you have a female gender identity.

'If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.'

No, that gets to the crux of the matter very well though. No I wouldn't. My sense of self is not impacted by my body or genetalia. Even less by the things you think I should like, do or think or be good/bad at because of them.

@Shizuku no. I am stating that I have lived for thirty years in a female body and that waking up with a penis and testicles wouldn’t feel entirely normal at first.

[quote MinnieMous3]@Shizuku

Is it just a huge coincidence then that upon becoming trans, most transwomen grow their hair long, start wearing ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most transmen cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? If gender identity was not related to sexist stereotypes, is that just a massive coincidence?[/quote]
Is it just a huge coincidence that a majority of cis women grow their hair long and wear ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most cis men cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? Or are we shocked that most trans people behave in exactly the same way as most cis people?

‘If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.’

There is no way of knowing this. I have had different bodies - child, adult, pregnant, menopausal. I didn’t feel like I was in the wrong body. Why should I suddenly feel like I am in the wrong body with a penis?

[quote MinnieMous3]@Shizuku no. I am stating that I have lived for thirty years in a female body and that waking up with a penis and testicles wouldn’t feel entirely normal at first.[/quote]
You said you would feel like a woman in a man's body - that's gender identity right there.

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

Bollocks. I'd feel like me. I've got no idea what other people feel like, let alone people of the opposite sex. I'm sure I'd have some body dysmorphia until I got used to it, but that wouldn't affect my sex in the slightest.

And if asked am I a man or a woman, I'd respond on the basis of the body I was in, as I do now. How else can I possibly respond?

Animal example, seeing as you lot like those:

You know that clownfish change sex right? Male clownfish turn into female clownfish? Well, they're not still male clownfish because of their inner "male gender identity".

You said you would feel like a woman in a man's body - that's gender identity right there.

No she didn't, and what she described was body dysmorphia.

And I thought religious people were annoying in the 2000s...

If you took anyone's brain out and put it in someone else body my guess is they would totally freak out and lose their marbles pretty quickly.

You can't take someone's brain out and put it in someone else's body so this is a pretty random line of speculation.

Incidentally the question what would you do if you were a man/woman for a day is not uncommon. Women usually say have a per standing up and a wank. Men usually say we wanking and playing with breasts.

I'm not sure what that tells us.

Is it just a huge coincidence that a majority of cis women grow their hair long and wear ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most cis men cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? Or are we shocked that most trans people behave in exactly the same way as most cis people?

No, it’s societal conditioning from birth. A toddler girl wouldn’t know if she was wearing ‘boys’ clothing.

However a transwoman has been raised male, so the fact they’re happy to jump headfirst into a pool of stereotypes without the aforementioned conditioning suggests they are choosing to follow them.

Pee not per

Oh my god, you’re still wheeling out the study on kids with DSDs that cites John Money, as if multiple people here haven’t explained to you that it’s a)irrelevant b) doesn’t say what you say it does and c) John Money FFS!

You’re like a bot. Nothing gets through. No, there’s nothing else that you can help me with today, goodbye.

Brain transplants? Long hair?

And hang on - even if transwomen did show ‘brain patterns like a woman’ I’m guessing not all biological women would have those brain patterns. It really proves absolutely nothing. The whole thing is a house of cards made of word salad.