Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

@shizuku. May I complement you on your persistence and dedication. You must be exhausted. I check in a couple of times a day and there you are, on several threads at once, all the time. Remarkable stamina.

Of course it exists. People ego identify with all sorts. An identity is the narrative we weave for ourselves in the absence of connection with self.

Doesn't make it real or concrete or something that can be used to oppress.

*should be used to oppress

The actual people with those conditions say you're wrong.

And we will keep repeating the cycle then won’t we.

Because there are people with differences in sex development who tell us that their conditions support the sex binary and that with modern techniques, all bar a few very rare conditions, people with differences in sex development are identified as being either male or female.

Most of their disorders are actually sex specific.

The actual people with those conditions say you're wrong.

Not all of them. Have you asked them? Plus, male and female are a binary. There is no third option.

We know people believe they have a gender identity.

As midge says

So?

Still doesn't mean that everyone has a gender identity

Still doesn't mean that gender identity is a characteristic around which laws should be based

Still doesn't mean that sex is complicated

Still doesn't mean that trans people have any DSD

I have a gender - it manifests in many ways, including keeping the female name that my parents gave me, not telling people not to use the pronouns they automatically use in relation to me, wearing clothes labelled as ‘women’s clothes’, shaving my armpits, occasionally wearing make up and painting my nails - obviously these things are more or less closely associated with my gender (I’m not suggesting that if you don’t shave your armpits or wear make up you don’t have a female gender) - but I do all of these things because I grew up with certain expectations being placed on me as a woman, and over time they have come to be parts of who I am (again, some are much more key part of who I am than others).

And we keep telling you that with modern techniques, people with medical conditions can be identified as either male or female

What about a person with XY chromosomes who is born with apparently normal female primary sexual characteristics, is raised as a female, is told at puberty (following investigations to establish why they aren’t menstruating) that they have an unspecified condition which means they are infertile and need to take HRT for life, and don’t find out about their Y chromosome until they are in their twenties - are they really male or female?

@Helen8220

I have a gender - it manifests in many ways, including keeping the female name that my parents gave me, not telling people not to use the pronouns they automatically use in relation to me, wearing clothes labelled as ‘women’s clothes’, shaving my armpits, occasionally wearing make up and painting my nails - obviously these things are more or less closely associated with my gender (I’m not suggesting that if you don’t shave your armpits or wear make up you don’t have a female gender) - but I do all of these things because I grew up with certain expectations being placed on me as a woman, and over time they have come to be parts of who I am (again, some are much more key part of who I am than others).

‘Certain expectations being put in me as a woman’

Wouldn’t it be better to dismantle these so everyone can be their authentic selves, rather than reinforcing them by saying they’re part of your female ‘gender’?

The best explanation of ‘gender’ I have seen is:
Sexism - Women should do the dishes
Feminism - Women or men can do the dishes
Gender - The person doing the dishes is a woman

There’s basically no way around the ‘social constructs’ thing without promoting sexist stereotypes. If you’re okay with that then that’s your prerogative, but don’t expect the rest of us to be.

@Helen8220

And we keep telling you that with modern techniques, people with medical conditions can be identified as either male or female

What about a person with XY chromosomes who is born with apparently normal female primary sexual characteristics, is raised as a female, is told at puberty (following investigations to establish why they aren’t menstruating) that they have an unspecified condition which means they are infertile and need to take HRT for life, and don’t find out about their Y chromosome until they are in their twenties - are they really male or female?

What has this got to do with ‘gender’? Unless you’re insinuating all trans people have an undetected DSD?

@Helen8220

And we keep telling you that with modern techniques, people with medical conditions can be identified as either male or female

What about a person with XY chromosomes who is born with apparently normal female primary sexual characteristics, is raised as a female, is told at puberty (following investigations to establish why they aren’t menstruating) that they have an unspecified condition which means they are infertile and need to take HRT for life, and don’t find out about their Y chromosome until they are in their twenties - are they really male or female?

And I have also said in other posts on other threads to pp , (not you, Helen) that there are the rare exceptions. I have learnt a great deal from following some great people with CAIS and PAIS on twitter. I do believe they can be identified into a sex class. It is a male difference in sex development in that their male bodies developed the way they did due to how their particular body responds to androgen.) I have not read a case where it is referred to as a female condition. If you have that information, I would happily read it.

How they live should be based on having full knowledge of their bodies and making the decision that works for them? Just as every person has the right to have this knowledge about themselves.

However, my point is, was and always will be, that these medical conditions should never be used to destabilize the science relating to sex. You need a male and a female to reproduce and there is no third sex. People with DSDs are not other sexes. Just like someone born without a leg does not disprove that humans are bipedal animals.

How cruel is it to have this sex as a spectrum raised based on people with medical conditions. This spectrum ultimately needs to have people arbitrate where on the spectrum someone with CAIS or PAIS should go. Instead, as what has always been known, there are two sexes and everyone has individual body characteristics that fit in that sex.

No are they really male or female needed. No panel that states this person has this natural hormone make up today, they are more female today than yesterday. No panel stating that a woman born with one ovary falls ‘here’ on the spectrum.

And what does the condition that applies to 2 to 5 people in around 100 000 have to do with ‘gender’? They have very individual and complex needs.

How is using them as an explanation for ‘gender’ useful for the far wider population who certainly don’t have any difference in sex development at all?

Why can you not get past DSDs?

They are a non sequitur. They have no correlation with Transgender identities or dysphoria and have nothing to do with you.

The person you describe with a DSD who has XY chromosomes and almost fully formed female gentalia (complete androgen insensitivity or Swyers) is male. They do still seem to have some physical strength and size advantages, however they would be observed female at birth and socially conditioned to be female, and have full access to everything female, so where is the issue?

As far as I am aware they are no more likely to feel uncomfortable with their sexed body than the general population. This could be because they also have a 'pink' brain or because they are nurtured to a female social role. It proves nothing either way except that DSDs exist.

They will automatically have access to single sex spaces, no one is disputing that. If they feel discomfort, they have the option to socially and or medically transition.

No one is arguing about dsds (in any area except extreme competitive sporting advantage) except TRAs.

It doesn't factor in any meaningful way into the arguement that any person who feels or says they are a woman is one and should have unfettered, unquestioned access to all things female.

No idea why my post got deleted, all I did was compare gender ideology with mythical animals? Some people genuinely believe in them, e.g Icelanders.

Didn't see post but if you were implying that nobody has a gender identity, that believing you have one is equivalent to believe in fairies I can understand why

Fairies are ( not) a real world thing
A gender identity is a personal feeling, your own interpretation of your own brain state

Comparing gender identity to fairies is like telling someone who is depressed that they have no reason to be or , telling someone who says " I'm happy" that they don't feel that way

Yes @Wondermule Pointing out that faires do not exist, no matter how many Icelander's believe in them, was very naughty of you

Remember how Tinkerbelle died? Literal violence!

@midgedude

Didn't see post but if you were implying that nobody has a gender identity, that believing you have one is equivalent to believe in fairies I can understand why

Fairies are ( not) a real world thing
A gender identity is a personal feeling, your own interpretation of your own brain state

Comparing gender identity to fairies is like telling someone who is depressed that they have no reason to be or , telling someone who says " I'm happy" that they don't feel that way

...or telling someone who believes in fairies that they don’t exist.

It’s a belief in something that has no scientific reality to it, although theoretically ‘possible’ in the way most ideas are - I could argue fairies exist because there’s no reason for them not to exist - look at dragonflies, birds, what’s to say a small winged human couldn’t exist or have existed? In fact now I think about it, I used to have dreams about flying, and have very pointed ears. This may indicate that my thought processes are more ‘fairy-like’ than human, so what’s to say I don’t have a fairy brain?

The word ‘gender’ wasn’t even in existence in its current usage until the 1950s; whereas fairies are comparatively very distinguished, going back to Celtic and Germanic times. They may well always have been in existence, it’s just we didn’t know about them.

I used to have dreams about flying

I've always been able to fly in my dreams. My feet just don't touch the ground - I can will myself upwards just by tensioning my torso. Just drifting along above ground level by default, or lifting up into the air if I want to. Beats walking.

That mode of motion is practically second nature to me.

Not sure it merits any sort of corrective surgery or societal changes to cope with my flight abilities though.

Someone's feelings of their own gender identify are real feelings Not belief

Someone imposing gender onto you is different

You will get deleted if you belittle other people's feelings

We are debating whether something exists. Therefore it is normal to draw parallels between this, and other things people believe in that do not exist. If gender really exists it would stand up to such scrutiny without its supporters feeling the need to delete the comments.

No you asked why the post might have been deleted

If you appear to mock someone's belief or feelings it will get deleted

It is perfectly possible to make a case that gender identity is not universal, probably a product in part of societial conditioning and with no proven innate biological/brain basis without mocking people who believe otherwise

I’m not mocking them. Some people believe in fairies, like I said in Iceland they have subverted road plans to avoid building over areas they believe to be fairy homes. So if anything, you’re mocking them.

And we’re not making the case that gender ideology isn’t universal etc, that’s the compromise you want us to reach. We are arguing it doesn’t exist at all - it’s just a made up word with no tangible meaning, used to describe internalised stereotypes. To me.

You were asking why you may have been deleted

I gave you one likely explanation based on how you were expressing yourself As I thought you were actually interested

See what I mean @Wondermule

So much for acceptance without question and all that!