What does CIS mean?

[Babysharkdoodoodood]

I mean really?
I was discussing (ranting) about this with DH today. Trying to explain why I'm a woman and not a cis female.

Then he come out with this beauty (not being nasty): Doesn't it just mean Cunt In Situ?

I was absolutely howling mainly because it's true

If only gender identity ideology had a corresponding reality-based framework!

@nauticant

Thanks for your answers Chemistindisguise. Yes, of course, ring structures. I wonder what it actually is that causes the groups to be fixed in place and rotation not possible, for example in butene? (Well, maybe they're not fixed and flipping is possible but there's just not enough activation energy at RTP.) I hadn't thought about inorganics so that's interesting to know.

I have always been suspicious when scientific concepts having an established meaning get appropriated by people from the social science to create weird partial analogies, which then get turned into a thing.

Yes, like with quantum physics and the law of attraction - they use the terms to try to make it sound scientific. markahaughtonquantumvibrationalnumbers.com/quantum-mechanics-of-the-law-of-attraction/

I must not think about the appropriation of concepts from quantum physics in the social sciences! That causes terrible teeth-grinding and I've not been to the dentists in more than a year.

I must not think about the appropriation of concepts from quantum physics in the social sciences

Schrodingers Cat is both cis and trans.

Sorry, sorry. Won't do it again

Grr, that's more tooth enamel gone.

Anyway, enough of my derail, carry on with the angel photography of defining cis meaningfully.

@Winederlust

Then don't call trans women men

Then don't call people who don't believe in gendered identities cis.

See how this works?

I'm happy with a compromise - I won't refer to anyone here as cis, as long as no one here refers to trans women as male.

Do we have a deal?

@BahHumbygge

I’d like to ask the gender advocates on this thread: I’m fairly sure I know what my sex is (I have the female package of boobs/periods/vulva etc), but how do I know what my gender identity is? I personally feel I don’t have one, but I’m happy to look at a checklist or descriptions to see where I fit best. I really don’t “feel” like a woman, except maybe the times I have bad period cramps. What is it about someone that makes them womanly (or manly)?

Also, how do I know whether or not my gender “matches” to my sex? If even sex is a spectrum, and some arbitrary thing, ditto gender identity, how can even “cis” and “trans” be a thing? Surely then all humans would form a nebulous distribution cloud of random body parts and personality traits, therefore it becomes impossible to discern some axis along which humans might aggregate into two contrasting classes. There’d be no alignment or disalignment between the physicality of their bodies vs the cultured expectations and practices that coalesce around that physicality, if all humans fall into that amorphous cloud of possibilities.

If gender is something “inner”, how do I know whether or not I share it with someone of the same reproductive system type? How does something so “inner” affect how I am perceived and treated as I navigate through the world? How is it possible to build a liberation/equality movement about something so ethereal, and why is it necessary to have a movement based on an inward feeling that has no verifiable outward definition? That might make for an interesting social club, but what makes that inner feeling something of political importance, i.e. affecting power relations between two groups of people? How are those groups defined? Can the oppressors and those who seek to harm me with violence read my inner thoughts, or is there some immutable, outward manifestation about me that is instantly readable and hence how they react to me? Why is my husband read and addressed differently from me when being served in shops, even when we’re dressed similarly in jeans & hoodie, and facemasks covering most facial hair (or lack of) and features? What is that tangible thing that marks the difference 🤔

Do you feel an immediate sense of distress at your conclusion that you are female? Does it feel like the logical conclusion? Feel fine with it? No jarring sensation? No profound feeling even from the age of 3 or 4 that something is definitely wrong with you being categorised as female? No?

Then you can be fairly sure your gender identity is female.

Lucky you - your gender identity matches the sex you were assigned at birth - you can now just get on with your life with having to worry about transitioning in a transphobic society.

Do you feel an immediate sense of distress at your conclusion that you are female?

Why then is gender reassignment surgery a minority interest for transwomen? Why can I find posts where they're saying how delighted they are with their current configuration.

Again, it's gender dysphoria used as an explanation when trans activists have rejected that this is a requirement for someone to be trans.

"Why then is gender reassignment surgery a minority interest for transwomen?"

It isn't. This is from a survey of 6,450 transgender and gender non-conforming people:

static1.squarespace.com/static/566c7f0c2399a3bdabb57553/t/566cbf2c57eb8de92a5392e6/1449967404768/ntds_full.pdf

"Sixty-two percent (62%) of respondents have had hormone therapy, with the likelihood increasing with age; an additional 23% hope to have it in the future. Transgender-identified respondents accessed hormonal therapy (76%) at much higher rates than their gender non-conforming peers, with transgender women more likely to have accessed hormone therapy (80%) than transgender men (69%). Almost all respondents who reported undertaking transition-related surgeries also reported receiving hormone therapy (93%)"

"Transgender women may elect to undertake a variety of surgeries, including breast augmentation, orchiectomy (removal of testes), vaginoplasty (creation of a vagina and/or removal of the penis), and facial feminization surgeries. We asked respondents to report on whether they had, or wanted, breast augmentation surgery, orchiectomies and vaginoplasties. As the charts below show, most transgender women reported wanting or having these surgeries. In addition, 17% reported having had facial surgery.10 However, it is impossible to know how many others would desire or utilize surgery if it was more financially accessible"

Yes, I do feel a jarring and dysphoric feeling with my female body, I felt my boobs were too small, I felt disgust that my body's too hairy, I've been inconsolably distressed when I've seen GP's on the matter and been brushed off "don't worry, it doesn't mean you're turning into a man or anything". My belly curves out and I've been mistaken for being pregnant, when I was struggling to conceive and it never happened. Fertility doctor said I couldn't possibly have PCOS and refused to entertain the idea "because you don't look like that" - pointing at husband's beard.

So don't you dare say my body hasn't been an immense sense of dysphoria and distress. That's not fucking "lucky"

Not to mention all the times I've been leered at, followed by a guy walking sideways so he could fully fixatedly stare at me when I was just walking into town along the prom. Groped, touched up, fortunately nothing worse. I don't call having a female body "lucky" when I feel such an incongruence between wanting freedom from hassle and harassment when going out in the world and how I see myself

That is why "female" isn't my gender identity, it's my sex.

@BahHumbygge

Yes, I do feel a jarring and dysphoric feeling with my female body, I felt my boobs were too small, I felt disgust that my body's too hairy, I've been inconsolably distressed when I've seen GP's on the matter and been brushed off "don't worry, it doesn't mean you're turning into a man or anything". My belly curves out and I've been mistaken for being pregnant, when I was struggling to conceive and it never happened. Fertility doctor said I couldn't possibly have PCOS and refused to entertain the idea "because you don't look like that" - pointing at husband's beard.

So don't you dare say my body hasn't been an immense sense of dysphoria and distress. That's not fucking "lucky"

Not to mention all the times I've been leered at, followed by a guy walking sideways so he could fully fixatedly stare at me when I was just walking into town along the prom. Groped, touched up, fortunately nothing worse. I don't call having a female body "lucky" when I feel such an incongruence between wanting freedom from hassle and harassment when going out in the world and how I see myself

That is why "female" isn't my gender identity, it's my sex.

Jarring and dysphoric specifically because it's female and because other people perceive you as female?

Do you feel an immediate sense of distress at your conclusion that you are female? Does it feel like the logical conclusion? Feel fine with it? No jarring sensation? No profound feeling even from the age of 3 or 4 that something is definitely wrong with you being categorised as female? No?

You actually just posted that to a feminist forum with a straight face.

I am dying with embarrassment on your behalf here.

There's no "conclusion that I am female"... just an immutable "isness" that's been me since conception. Nothing logical about it, no logical processes would shift it one way or the other. Of course I don't feel fine with it, existing as a female in a sexist, misogynist world. Every sinew of me jars against that fact, and I've felt that way since boys' rough, dangerous and sexualised behaviour in the primary school playground was brushed off.
One incident, age 9, boy in my class pretend thrusting against me. Reported to the teachers, but I felt such an internalised sense of shame over that... that was jarring against what my sense of self should have been. So, yes I do feel dysphoria between what I know myself to be and how the world treats me as a woman.

@nauticant

Thanks for your answers Chemistindisguise. Yes, of course, ring structures. I wonder what it actually is that causes the groups to be fixed in place and rotation not possible, for example in butene? (Well, maybe they're not fixed and flipping is possible but there's just not enough activation energy at RTP.) I hadn't thought about inorganics so that's interesting to know.

I have always been suspicious when scientific concepts having an established meaning get appropriated by people from the social science to create weird partial analogies, which then get turned into a thing.

@nauticant The bonds between the atoms are created when the energy level of the outermost electron of one atom combines with another, to form a "new" energy level which is the bond (badly explained but hopefully you get the idea). The "shape" of the bond energy level may or may not allow rotation. If you look at butane (vs butene) a standard sigma single bond between the carbons allows rotation so the functional groups aren't fixed in position*. Once you have a double bond, you have the sigma bonds between the two central carbons and also a pi orbital above and below the central bond (the second bond) and two (sp3) orbitals poking out the other side of the atoms which can form single bonds with another atom (in the example of butene-2 these are the hydrogens & methyl groups). The pi bonds between the two carbons mean they can't rotate & the other functional groups are fixed relative to each other, in their cis or trans formation.
"Why can't they rotate?" beyond the simplified explanation of the diagram attached is quantum mechanics and that's a real dusting of the brain/textbooks!

*while they can rotate, their positions relative to each other are fixed, so for example lactic acid where you have a central carbon and 4x sigma bonds from that carbon to 4 different functional groups means you can have molecular structures which are mirror images (enantiomers). The chemical properties are often the same but they rotate plane polarised light in opposite directions. The famous example of this is thalidomide, where one of the enantiomers worked to prevent morning sickness but the other caused birth defects.

It’s a term that others women.

It's all about interlinked configurations of electron clouds. Which reminds me of being told forever ago that chemistry is all about electrons.

Even with the mindbending science it's still easier to grasp than what cis means.

Do you feel an immediate sense of distress at your conclusion that you are female? Does it feel like the logical conclusion? Feel fine with it? No jarring sensation? No profound feeling even from the age of 3 or 4 that something is definitely wrong with you being categorised as female? No?

Then you can be fairly sure your gender identity is female

Lucky you - your gender identity matches the sex you were assigned at birth - you can now just get on with your life with having to worry about transitioning in a transphobic society

This makes no sense.

I mean aside from all the women who quite clearly state that they are uncomfortable in their sexed bodies but still recognise themselves to be female.

I thought that the current narrative was that you don't need to be dysphoric to be trans and that it's transphobic to suggest otherwise?

And if you don't need to be dysphoric to be trans then surely you don't need to be dysphoric to recognise that you don't have a gender identity.

"I'm happy with a compromise - I won't refer to anyone here as cis, as long as no one here refers to trans women as male.

Do we have a deal?"

Deal.

How about not female? or cis female?

cis female ?? Sorry too many toffee crisps

*trans female

..but really I think trans woman covers it, if you could just back off with all the TWA literally W.

@Babdoc

There are no cis women. There are just women. Calling us cis implies there is some other kind of women. There isn’t. HTH.

This

Only speaking for myself obvs.

Lucky you - your gender identity matches the sex you were assigned at birth - you can now just get on with your life with having to worry about transitioning in a transphobic society.

So by gender identity you mean sex identity? Nothing to do with gender?

Winederlust

Then don't call trans women menThen don't call people who don't believe in gendered identities cis.See how this works?I'm happy with a compromise - I won't refer to anyone here as cis, as long as no one here refers to trans women as male.8Do we have a deal?*
Nice switch there from men to male.!!!!!!!

First they appropriated " woman" now they want " female " as well!
Interestingly co chair from Green Party Woman's group has just been suspended for not being prepared to accept that male transwomen haebecome members of the female sex.
Sure they don't want to ERASE women ! Aye right! I won't call a transwomen a man but they are not members of my sex class. They are male.