--protect your daughter--, educate your son"

[satishoused]

I've seen this around a lot in light of awful recent events. But I am interested in what it actually means.

I have been with my husband for 20 years and he has never laid a finger on me in anger. But I am also 100% sure that when his parents were bringing him up, they never said to him "don't rape/hit/be violent towards women". It just would not have been an explicit conversation. He was raised to be a good person with similar values to how I was raised and how we are raising our children.

I'm just interested as a mother of two boys, and someone who is aware that we do live in a deeply misogynistic world, as to what this sort of "education" looks and sounds like.

Thank you for this thread and the interesting and perceptive comments. I have felt the responsibility of being the mother of a son quite heavily this week; he's only 18 months but I think that the PP is right that it's not enough to teach them not to be sexist but we (by which I mean parents, not just women) have to teach them to be anti-sexist.

Bang on Michelle.

I do agree Northernsoullover, the culture of misogyny and sexism is overwhelming. It's just everywhere.

Even down to the small, seemingly insignificant things; Ds has always had close friends who are girls and used to like to watch Lego friends and barbie on tv.

Toddler wanted to watch one of them recently and ds pulled a face, as did dh. Which I felt compelled to challenge; what's wrong with girls? (the barbie one is actually well written and very stem, as is polly pocket. It's the pink thing they are put off by, which is a big issue I feel)

How the hell does it get this bad?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/report-boys-to-the-police-for-sexual-abuse-top-schools-told-cjlzd2pmp

A minority of men will physically assault or harm women.

Many, many men are involved in 'lad' culture whether they be actively involved or passively involved. Normalising 'lad banter' and things like sexual innuendos designed to clearly make a woman feel uncomfortable need to be called out.

Op have you read 'the invisible woman'?

As the main carer it would be good for your DH to read it too.

I don't think the issue is bad men V good men.
The world is literally designed for men.

Recognise and learn the little every day things that reinforce sexism are happening.

Man- up, gendering of toys, the women's sport never being on prime time etc.

One thing that winds me up is talk of 'consent'. I am never going to mention the word when talking about sex.
Consent is passive. You consent to a medical procedure you shouldn't be consenting to sex you should be enthusiastically running in with a massive great grin on both your faces. Nothing less than enthusiastic participation is good enough.

Yes I have read invisible women, an excellent book.

Dh hasn't read it though.

I think that we need to be sure that nurseries and schools aren't encouraging sexism and entitlement. I say this as someone who taught for 20 years and saw all kinds of entitled male behaviour going on in the staffroom as well as the classroom.

When I left teaching I took a job in a building next door to a nursery. In the summer with windows open and the children playing in the yard I heard all sorts of eye-watering sexist stuff going on. Girls told to get off the blue trike because that was for the boys, boys issued with drinks in blue cups, girls given pink cups, boys told not to use face paint as lipstick because lipstick was for girls, boys told to take off dressing-up items because they'd chosen a 'girly' thing. I regularly heard and saw girls who were being assertive and saying no told off for not being nice and boys who were wrestling with each other, or hitting each other, laughed over in a 'boys will be boys, you gotta love 'em' way. This nursery was widely considered to be the best in the area. I made a complaint to the inspectors and the response was to question me about my motivation for spying on a nursery.

That was a decade ago. I would have hoped things have changed but now that even very young children are being told they may have been born in the wrong body and that boys can be girls and vice versa, my guess is that everything is even more gender policed than before.

With regard to consent - my sons are all in primary school, and the one in reception recently referred to a female classmate as ‘his girlfriend’. We had a conversation with him about the fact that he can’t call her his girlfriend if she hasn’t consented to that term. She’s also in fact a friend who’s a girl. She might be a girl he particularly likes but at primary school children don’t (or shouldn’t) refer to girlfriends and boyfriends as it’s quite grown up.
We told the boys that they probably wouldn’t like it if a girl was running around telling everyone that they were that person‘s boyfriend if they weren’t. It implies ownership and it’s saying untrue things.
It sounds like it was a heavy conversation but it wasn’t when we actually had it and they engaged with what we were saying.

I think we need to address aspirations and character as concepts. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. In my experience that's exactly what good men do - nothing. Turning a blind eye, not speaking out, collusion, NAMLT, are all doing nothing and a feature of a coward not a decent man.

All children need to be taught about the real heroes and heroines, the ones who spoke up, who risked their lives to protest injustice. Not in a SJW way of denunciations and silencing, which is just another way of bullying, but a solid doing what's right way.

Teach self respect and respect for others, teach the purpose of strength is to support not oppress others. Value integrity and empathy. Give children and young people aspirations beyond a good job, lots of sex and money. Help boys to recognise their capacity for courage and character (in the MLK sense).

@hamstersarse - they would never dream of approaching a woman to ‘chat them up’. This is now seen as pervy so it’s just not done anymore

This is an interesting point and links to what I was saying about should men be expected to cross the street in case women feel intimidated.....

I'm just not sure how healthy it is for men to assume as a default that women are suspicious and frightened of them. Doesn't seem like a good basis for healthy relationships.

@Kendodd you do you, but I will be talking consent, not just in the context of sex but it will almost certainly include sex.

Many, many men are involved in 'lad' culture whether they be actively involved or passively involved. Normalising 'lad banter' and things like sexual innuendos designed to clearly make a woman feel uncomfortable need to be called out.

This. I know a guy who is fabulously supportive of his wife, who loves him to bits and he is great with his adopted daughters. But I've also heard him joining in with the lads in the pub and the shitty sexist banter. DH says it's like being at school, join in or be ostracised, and whilst the banter isn't an issue with his mates, the alcohol is, and the abuse they give anyone who turns down a drink. It's a bizarre type of peer pressure with men. I do wonder how many men are actually uncomfortable with lad culture, but say nothing?

Consent really is in essence for children what I'mnobody says so well above. Respect for others.

If for example it was strongly embedded in society, parliament and policy, enforced in schools and all public places with police committed to it, that

• equal respect, consideration and treatment must be extended to all in all situations (as opposed to some people deserve more and some people deserve less and that's ok because Reasons)

• a strong social requirement that everyone treat others to the same standards and level they feel entitled to themselves - and address the idea of entitlement, removing allowances and acceptance of double standards (Lundy Bancroft incidentally notes this different standards of entitlement as the hallmark of power imbalance that creates domestically abusive situations in relationships)

• social recognition and respect for people's boundaries and acceptance of 'no'

And women would have a much better experience of society and life in general.

he is great with his adopted daughters
How is he with his birth daughters?

Educating our sons absolutely IS essential. And of course, this should be done by both parents, but we all know that realistically, it's going to start with women. Which is a pity because realistically, the more it's done by men, the more likely it is to have an impact.

The truth is that all the really bad stuff starts with the smaller stuff. It starts with horrible, misogynist comments from men that other men don't call out. Starting with small boys being told not to "thow like a girl" or "cry like a girl" or, my personal favourite, "it's just boys being boys" as they kick and hit and scratch.

And it continues. What man hasn't stood in a pub while another man has made some comment to a woman walking past? even if the man isn't the one making the comment, how often do they say, "Hey, stop that" rather than just laughing or, at best, looking away?

Like a PP I've been teaching DS about consent since he was a toddler. He is bigger and stronger than all the girls, and most of the boys. I often get people a bit shocked that I do this. But he needs to understand that he IS bigger and stronger and that means that even if he doesn't mean to, he could hurt someone or make them afraid without even realising it.

The outcome is that I keep getting told by other parents, particularly parents of girls, that DS often jumps in to protect/stop things. Because he's only 10 but if he can understand how physically overwhelming people who are smaller and weaker than you isn't okay, it's hard to understand how grown men find this so hard to understand.

I'm just not sure how healthy it is for men to assume as a default that women are suspicious and frightened of them. Doesn't seem like a good basis for healthy relationships.

Again, it's not about assuming that all women are suspicious and frightened of them its about realising that some women might be and acting accordingly.

@jellyfrizz

I'm just not sure how healthy it is for men to assume as a default that women are suspicious and frightened of them. Doesn't seem like a good basis for healthy relationships.

Again, it's not about assuming that all women are suspicious and frightened of them its about realising that some women might be and acting accordingly.

Also, context is everything. As a rule, I'm not scared of men when I'm standing in a coffee shop but on a dark path late at night... different story.

@buddy79

I think it means all of us, but especially boys, need to be explicitly and actively taught anti-violence and anti-misogyny. Assuming they will learn correct behaviour through the passive or more general messages at home and school is clearly not enough. I have 2 sons and will be specifically teaching them, in an age appropriate way, to be anti-violent, anti-racist, actively empathic. Through talking, stories, and hopefully my own example.

This.

Our children are surrounded by a toxic culture, we need to work hard to counteract that.

Over the last few days I’ve had many conversations with my teenagers about #notallmen #yesallwomen “ women stay at home and stay safe” etc .

We talk about misogyny and racism, sex and consent, porn, WAVG.

Sorry VAWG

I spoke to my husband about this and I said to him, would your friends just touch a girls bum in a club or yell after a girl and he said, yes a few in his group have done this in the past and he never liked it, so I asked him: did you call them out? His response was no & that's where men need to be educated including my husband to actually his friends this behaviour needs to stop.

It's not just about being violent or raping a woman.

I have both daughters and sons. Unfortunately I’m worried for both. But yes I am fucking fed up with every time my son does something wrong or naughty everyone says ‘that’s just boys being boys though’ ffs no 😱. Likewise girls are called bitchy or victim blamed for male behaviour etc and both of mine need to learn about what a healthy dynamic and relationship is - as they are not going to get it from society or porn or anything

he is great with his adopted daughters
How is he with his birth daughters?

He doesn't have any (or sons), why?

Article by Julie Bindel today.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/men-are-being-radicalised-by-the-incel-movement