--protect your daughter--, educate your son"

[satishoused]

I've seen this around a lot in light of awful recent events. But I am interested in what it actually means.

I have been with my husband for 20 years and he has never laid a finger on me in anger. But I am also 100% sure that when his parents were bringing him up, they never said to him "don't rape/hit/be violent towards women". It just would not have been an explicit conversation. He was raised to be a good person with similar values to how I was raised and how we are raising our children.

I'm just interested as a mother of two boys, and someone who is aware that we do live in a deeply misogynistic world, as to what this sort of "education" looks and sounds like.

I've had men cat call me too. Nothing I can do to change their behaviour just don't react to it. The opposite of love is not hate it's indifference. I'm not for one second agreeing that it's right.

For rape, it is a crime like all other crime and criminals should be punished obviously.

I don't understand why we are reclaiming the night. It is more dangerous for women to walk the streets because we are weaker physically. What we need to do is to be able to protect ourselves because unfortunately there are scumbags out there.

I also think it's important every. single. time. to point out the historical inequalities. My kid's class have been learning about great male scientists in history, so making sure to point out that women were totally excluded then. Boys need to know how recent it is that women couldn't go to uni or have professional jobs.

[quote Justanotherworkingmom]@chocolatesweets Completely agree. I cannot stand the victim culture that some on here are so keen to perpetuate.[/quote]
Please point out this 'victim culture' that you speak of?

If you aren't happy with something in your life then change it.

Well, I hadn’t realised this was the goal of my life...

“ You be the way YOU want to be and you'll attract a suitable man. “

Totally bIggreen

I think it means all of us, but especially boys, need to be explicitly and actively taught anti-violence and anti-misogyny. Assuming they will learn correct behaviour through the passive or more general messages at home and school is clearly not enough. I have 2 sons and will be specifically teaching them, in an age appropriate way, to be anti-violent, anti-racist, actively empathic. Through talking, stories, and hopefully my own example.

@chocolatesweets

If you aren't happy with something in your life then change it.

It really isn't that simple for many women.

I agree with a lot of the other suggestions.
But i do think it needs other men and fathers to model this to boys. I worry its all very well me discussing it but if all the men are modelling something else that will be more powerful Not just men they know but famous people / music lyrics/ youtubers. etc.

@buddy79

I think it means all of us, but especially boys, need to be explicitly and actively taught anti-violence and anti-misogyny. Assuming they will learn correct behaviour through the passive or more general messages at home and school is clearly not enough. I have 2 sons and will be specifically teaching them, in an age appropriate way, to be anti-violent, anti-racist, actively empathic. Through talking, stories, and hopefully my own example.

This. NAMALT means that generations of boys have been raised to not be violent, and misogynistic themsleves (though I think it's perfectly possible to be deeply sexist while looking like a nice reasonable person), but not being these things is not enough. Women can't change men's behaviour. Mothers can influence but ultimately it is down to men and boys to expect better of each other, to call each other out, to reject violent and misogynistic porn, to be actively anti, rather than just not.

need to be explicitly and actively taught anti-violence and anti-misogyny

But this is what I am questioning. I know many people who were not explicitly taught this and they are still not violent and misogynistic.

Yes - many individuals are not themselves violent or misogynistic in the least, but the broader culture is still such that some people are, and that is not routinely challenged. So I think we need to increase, as a whole society, the active challenge to such behaviour. I include myself in this.

It’s hard isn’t it - as a mum of two small boys I try not to bristle at the idea that there is something wrong with my parenting. But at the same time I’m already having to pull them up on remarks that are basically sexist (they are 4 & 6), and haven’t come from me. They could just be observational: always assigning me as ‘Princess Peach’ in their games, or maybe they come from school. I know some early sexist attitudes about boys and girls came from nursery, yet another occasion where I was that parent.

So societally we still have issues where people do hold blatantly sexist views. And my boys are energetic, so I probably do put up with more roughhousing than some of my friends who have girls, but it hasn’t come from me, more a seemingly innate need to be constantly active and frequently in physical contact with each other.

So I do intend to keep educating them, and we have deep conversations about things like consent. But they are the new generation, the current generation of young adults has suffered greatly from a ‘boys will be boys’ culture.

My worry is it’s actually not the parenting but the prevailing culture at school. Talking about this last night dd who said in year 6 some of the boys had seen horrible porn and were taunting the girls about it. These are nice boys with good parents I am friends with who would be horrified (and disbelieving I imagine). 🙁🙁 Dds at an all girls state secondary this is not an accident...

@MildredPuppy

I agree with a lot of the other suggestions. But i do think it needs other men and fathers to model this to boys. I worry its all very well me discussing it but if all the men are modelling something else that will be more powerful Not just men they know but famous people / music lyrics/ youtubers. etc.

Yes! This! This educate your son message, as reasonable as it seems still yet again puts the onus to fight this uphill struggle on women - mothers and eventually the blame for their son's behaviour.

@satishoused

need to be explicitly and actively taught anti-violence and anti-misogyny

But this is what I am questioning. I know many people who were not explicitly taught this and they are still not violent and misogynistic.

But do they call out misogyny in others? Their colleagues who ask the women in meetings to make the coffee/take the minutes, who touch unnecessarily? Their mate who meets at women in the pub after too many beers, do they cross the street when walking home to avoid a woman feeling uncomfortable as they walk behind her?

I've had men cat call me too. Nothing I can do to change their behaviour just don't react to it.

Of course we can change their behaviour. But for that to happen, we all have to start reacting.

www.today24.news/en/2021/03/in-the-footsteps-of-the-brigade-responsible-for-tracking-down-street-stalkers.html

do they cross the street when walking home to avoid a woman feeling uncomfortable as they walk behind her?

Should they? If they have no intent to do anything harmful? Should they assume the woman is fearful? I'm not convinced by that. Yes calling out sexist attitudes, but this I'm not sure on.

If someone’s behaviour is possibly going to intimidate others then yes they should take steps to reduce that risk.

The woman walking down the street has no idea what the mans intentions are but surely a man who doesn’t want to intimidate wokld change their behaviour to reduce that risk.

Should they? If they have no intent to do anything harmful? Should they assume the woman is fearful? I'm not convinced by that. Yes calling out sexist attitudes, but this I'm not sure on.

If men are told this makes women uncomfortable then continuing to do it is intent to harm. However, they have to know what alarms woman , so teach this at home and school.
People ( NAPALT of course) used to drink and drive with impunity but through education it has become socially unacceptable. Things can change and it starts with the small stuff.

You can't stop people being anything. You can put them in jail but you won't stop them.

I feel the criticism about men is only going to make things worse. When I'm criticised for something, I just want to say , "f* you then" and not bother at all.

My husband respects me and goes out at night to fetch the shopping or run errands because it is more dangerous for a woman than for a man as men are stronger physically.

And yes cat calling men are annoying and it's disgusting.

Should they? If they have no intent to do anything harmful? Should they assume the woman is fearful? I'm not convinced by that. Yes calling out sexist attitudes, but this I'm not sure on.

Yes, they should. It’s not necessarily about sexist attitudes, it’s about understanding that other people feel vulnerable. I do this when there is an elderly or infirm person walking in front of me at night and I want to overtake.
I also often do this when running as I know the sound of running footsteps can give people a fright.

I have 2 boys, 18 and 16. Brought up basically on my own...father flitting in.
I know with certainty because we talk about it that they have become non toxic men. They don’t even watch porn, much to the disbelief of their friends “you must watch porn...everyone does”
But porn is just an example of things we’ve talked about and they’ve understood it’s harms from their point of view as well as the women involved and women they’ll encounter. (They’ve been recounting recently how many many of their friends have become addicted to porn during lockdown but that’s a whole other thread)

My eldest son recently enquired with me about this new feeling of jealousy he was experiencing with a new girlfriend...because he didn’t like it..and we were able to talk about it rationally, deeply and without blame. I found that moving that he could talk to me about it because jealousy is so intimately linked with violence against women. The point being, jealousy is normal but acting it out isn’t and we were able to talk at this level.

Anyway, I’m sort of pleased they seem decent men but there are also some worries...

• they would never dream of approaching a woman to ‘chat them up’. This is now seen as pervy so it’s just not done anymore

• they would never go out with anyone even slightly younger, e.g. a year. That’s ‘paedo’ . Ask your teen boys...it’s definitely a thing not just with mine!

I know this seems small but there are certain ramifications of this to all of us, and I’m not entirely comfortable with the default being ‘pervert’ for young men

I know but there might be some women who don't feel intimidated. To assume they all are- isn't that a sexist stereotype? Drink driving presents a material risk. What we're talking about here is about feelings and perception, which is different, I think.

I live in a part of the UK that is economically deprived, mostly working class and despite being full of brilliant people has a massive amount of sexist attitudes that are passed on from generation to generation.

So if a family has a mum and dad there’s a lot of dads still saying “don’t clean up, your mum/sister will do it. That’s women’s work.” Men will talk dismissively about women in front of their children. They judge sexually active women but not men. This all starts very early for the kids, who pick up on who has value in the community. So kids say “I don’t need to do that, I’ll get my girlfriend to do it when I’m older” about childcare, housework etc.

Kids see much worse of course, but it’s like this is the norm. Women are nags, emotional, trying to trap men. You can’t really trust them, not like your mates. You can predict with reasonable accuracy who has a sexist dad from comments the kids come out with. We can teach them whatever we like, but if they go home to an adult they look up to who says “yeah, well, your teacher would say that, she’s a bird, int she?” It’s an uphill battle.