--protect your daughter--, educate your son"

[satishoused]

I've seen this around a lot in light of awful recent events. But I am interested in what it actually means.

I have been with my husband for 20 years and he has never laid a finger on me in anger. But I am also 100% sure that when his parents were bringing him up, they never said to him "don't rape/hit/be violent towards women". It just would not have been an explicit conversation. He was raised to be a good person with similar values to how I was raised and how we are raising our children.

I'm just interested as a mother of two boys, and someone who is aware that we do live in a deeply misogynistic world, as to what this sort of "education" looks and sounds like.

I know but there might be some women who don't feel intimidated. To assume they all are- isn't that a sexist stereotype?

You’re not assuming they are, you’re assuming they could be because they are more vulnerable due to size and strength.

Am I being ageist and ableist to move to the other side of the street in the dark when there is a much younger or much older or differently abler person who may feel vulnerable with me coming up behind them?

But neither party knows how the other feels so surely it’s better to take steps to minimise discomfort and feeling scared than to not?

Why is the default to head towards she may not feel uncomfy so it’s fine rather than she may feel uncomfy so take simple steps

*Differently abled

I understand why people want to put the emphasis on parents educating their boys rather than protecting their girls, but I'm not sure how effective it can really be.

Firstly, the kind of parents who would be keen to respond to a call to educate boys in this way are probably the ones who are already doing so by modelling equitable relationships and respectful behaviour towards women. Secondly, anti-sexist education by parents is not necessarily going to counteract the attitudes boys encounter and are influenced by elsewhere.

We can teach them whatever we like, but if they go home to an adult they look up to who says “yeah, well, your teacher would say that, she’s a bird, int she?” It’s an uphill battle.

We have to start somewhere . Drip by drip ...

I posted on the other thread that got pulled. Essentially I was of the opinion that I’d treat my kids equally regardless of sex. Now my ds is 7 and even though not the eldest/tallest he can physically dominate his sisters. It’s old fashioned to some but DH and I are trying very hard to explain to him that boys are mostly stronger than women and that it’s not ok to use strength to control and get your own way. Also the way he wants to play is not how most girls (including his sisters) want to play. In fact of all
Our sons behaviours, him using his strength to get his own way over his sisters is the one that gets him into the most trouble.

I know there is a lot of media in schools and TV about how girls and boys can be whatever they want. The focus on the non-stereotypical girls and boys, boys in dresses etc. There is not much for the boys who want to play fight, who want to grow up and big physically strong and like action. Which tbh is most of them.

We need to channel the message to these boys, it’s ok to be big and strong, in order to protect and help those who need you I.e. become a fireman, soldier etc That as bigger men they can stand up to the bullies when the vulnerable can’t. Almost like the old
Code of chivalry, but I don’t subscribe to all of that. But there has to be something for boys to grow up and aspire to. I’d rather a bunch of King Arthur, Robin Hood wannabes than boys being brainwashed by porn, first person shooter games and dodgy online groups who hate women.

Schools. Kids pick up so much from their peers. I feel so many boys develop their sexist attitudes from school. My DD has been to a few primary schools and is at high school now and it just seems so ingrained.
Girls not being allowed on the school field because boys are playing football (DD was in the bloody football team at every school).
Girls being told not to wear short skirts because it's distracting for boys.
I've had to complain about boys making comments about the girls, but was made to feel that I was making a fuss.
Boys being allowed to get away with poorer behaviour, whilst girls are punished for the same things.
Girls PE lessons being cancelled, but rarely the boys because they "need the exercise".
Pupils were banned from going to the toilets in lesson time because toilets were being vandalised, but then they had to make exceptions for girls on their periods. A parent complained that they were discriminating against the boys, so all the pupils were banned. But it was only the boys toilets that were getting vandalised.

There will need to be a return to values and beliefs being culturally fashionable and part of daily culture, and other beliefs and behaviours being taboo and seen as shameful before anything really changes. That was what contained and controlled social behaviour successfully with men in the past. At the moment tv constantly reflects and glamorises much of the attitudes and beliefs that lead to one sex being subordinated to the other - even if we're not supposed to talk about it.

If you watch a line of reception aged children lining up in the playground, I noticed this a lot when one of mine was in reception. Often you see a boy happily barge into the line at the spot he chooses, and often you see a displaced girl just move out of the way and go somewhere else. The competitive/physical and the 'give ground' is there at four, and I never saw it noticed by staff. No one encouraged the girl to stand their ground and hold their boundaries, or was firm with the boy that physical ways to get what you want aren't ok. Even at that age, unconscious physical behaviour is setting who gets and who gives.

@Fucket, you are not far wrong to mention the old code of chivalry. If I remember my lectures properly, it was started because women and children were seen as fair game in wartime - or in the general violence of medieval life - so a movement began to say “on these days there will be no fighting at all” and “women and children are to be left in peace, decent men fight each other.” Gradually the elaborate codes of behaviour that we think of as “knightly” grew from that.

I suppose there is a question as to how far it was ever really observed though.

@ MichelleofzeResistance exactly. We have forgotten in our race to equality, that some inequalities exist that if we don’t acknowledge them and how to control them as a society we end up with this natural tendency in males to grow unchecked. We cannot demonise our sons for being strong, we must teach them how to use their strength properly and to behave properly and we must as a society call out men who treat women and the vulnerable like shit.

We cannot blame them for being strong or male, doing that will breed resentment.

But mostly this is a male problem to solve. Men need to get their house in order. They need to look at how they are raising their sons. More men need to go into teaching at primary Level and set a good example.

‘Educate your sons’ sounds a lot to me like ‘women, it’s still your fault’.

@ Happinessisawarmcervix this reminds me of why Wellington was so successful in the peninsular war campaign against Napoleon. He absolutely forbade any soldier to rape and pillage, I may be wrong but I think they could’ve been shot for it. The army took its own food to so didn’t have to rely on taking from the Spanish. In return the Spanish didn’t resent the English as much as the French. So it pays in the end to respect the women, the children and the vulnerable. It’s the intelligent and wise thing to do as a man.

Men have sons too.

Hopefully in your DH's case he is mirroring a healthy relationship, much of the bad behaviours adults adopt have been learned from a young age which is why abuse can be cyclical. He would have, presumably, through school and home been taught kindness not always as an overt lesson but being scorned if violent, aggressive etc, learning how to be a good person. Whilst I will be having explicit conversations around consent etc, a lot of the "education" is behaving in a way you want your children to behave.

*WE, not just me Freudian slip ha.

There's two ways to look at it really.

1. sex is the issue: male people are naturally and inately different to female people, they're going to be rough and physical and that should be accepted and not repressed - in which case women need strong sex based protections and protected spaces for equality and safety, no arguments and no wittering about NAMALT or sex isn't really a thing. Third spaces needed.

2. Sex isn't the issue, it's just poor behaviour which men should be expected and made to control. Major, major and dramatic action needed in this case, and no excuses or justifications for that behaviour with strong legal enforcement, strong consequences and social expectation that no one of any sex or gender ever behaves this way.

Two sounds nicer on paper but would be very difficult to enforce, and is going to take decades even if we start now.

I think it's pointless. Any half decent parent does this subconsciously anyway. We bring all our kids up to be decent humans. The boys who will grow up to do this will have parents who don't care. Who are either modelling poor behaviour or simply don't care. And no amount of hastags will change that.

@Fucket

Men have sons too.

They do, but we all know that women still do most of the raising of those sons.

@spookycookies of course it's not pointless. I have excellent parents but there are so many conversations they didn't have with me and my brother they could of had.

Consent is a big one, I'm not just talking about sex, but there's lots of way to instill the idea of consent into a child as the consentor and consentee, for example, not tickling children, given children choices and control. There are far too many men in this world that do not understand or respect consent.

Have a look at the relationship board at some of the homes children are being raised in........ It's said on here daily ' mothers are the primary carers' as the primary carer of my dc I see it as my job to teach them what a healthy relationship is. What respect is and what boundaries are.
It's not assigning blame. But if we as women remain in homes where being put down, groped and assaulted is the norm don't be surprised when sons copy that behaviour and daughters go for the abusive man because that's all they know. And yet women stay because it's easier or the kids don't know etc etc.
I really think the answer to improving things is to pump vast amounts of money into women's refuges so the right choice is the easy choice......... I look at the years of cuts under the Tories and could cry. All those victims and all those children that will grow up to be abusers and victims.

But men are to blame for this. Where is the condemnation when a man runs off with another woman and leaves his young family to grow up without a good father role model?

Where are the men calling out other men for wanking off to women being raped on online porn?

Where are the men saying hang on, “why do you want access to that single sex space for? You’re welcome in our spaces!”

A change in culture and belief - for example absolute zero tolerance of threatening sexual violence - that led to the kind of enthusiastic hailing of toolkits down on schools that we see for other subjects, values reflected and considered by the BBC in all tv programmes and broadcasts, expectations upon the police and on social media regulation, would have a bigger impact on what happened inside all family homes.

There are a lot of subtle messages constantly going on in biased policing, biased prosecution, media everywhere that promote, female people matter less, that some things are more ok if they happen to a female, that treating female people this way is ok - and in some ways and fields is framed as actually quite righteous and to be celebrated.
That's what creates the culture we live in and the messages we're bombarded with all the time from every screen in the house.

Am I the only one pissed off by this? Its again putting the onus on women to get men to do the right thing. I'm a single parent and I like to think I'm doing a good job of raising my two boys. However the culture of toxic masculinity goes way deeper than I could ever have an influence on.
An example. Rugby clubs, have you heard the songs they sing? 'You can tell by the smell that she isn't very well when the time of the month comes around' is one particular gem. How grim is that?
If you see a picture of a woman online there will undoubtedly be a comment underneath my some male 'I'd smash that' I always report these to get told that it doesn't violate their standards. These are just two tiny examples of toxic male behaviour.
Much more needs to be done to stop vile behaviour such as this being seen as acceptable.

I think this 15 min video explains it clearly
Men currently achieve status by denigrating women (and others).
To be a passive bystander is to enable inappropriate behaviour. Same as for people who observe racist behaviours. To be non-racist/sexist isn't good enough as it allows societal inequalities to continue. One must be anti-racist, anti-sexist.

Am I the only one pissed off by this?

I'm not pissed off by it because I don't interpret it as just being aimed at the mum, I know I will be called out for that, women do the the lions share etc, but in our house DH does a lot of the "moral education" so when I first read that meme I did not see it aimed at me solely. It will be a continuous cycle if the previous generation don't act for the future generations and we all have a part to play in that.

I can see why as a single parent it would be viewed differently and completely agree with everything you've said, it does feel like an upwards struggle.