The word 'she' being ruder than the word 'he'

[Blackcountryman12]

I noticed a post in another topic from a few months ago where a member said they were brought up to believe 'she' was a rude word and when they referred to adult relatives as 'she' instead of their name, even though they weren't saying 'she' in a rude way, their mum would tell them off with that old-fashioned phrase "who's she, the cat's mother" (A phrase I can't stand), yet they were never told off for calling a man 'he' instead of using his name.

Referring to a man as 'he' instead of his name doesn't especially seem to be seen as offensive, hence no-one saying "who's he, that cat's whatever", so what was considered so rude about referring to a woman as 'she' instead of her name that led to that harsh, snooty and daft phrase about some imaginary cat and one of its parents?

The saying seemed to imply more than the woman being referred to has a name, it seemed to also mean "don't call someone 'she' because it's very rude". I have noticed men being called 'he' including in situations like "HE said that" and they weren't offended at being called 'he'.

I first heard this when I was telling my (very sarcastic) primary teacher about something. I can't remember what it was but it may have been tattling and thus her use of it was to shut me up complaining, which has a ring of 'calm down dear' misogyny to me.

My mum used to do the 'who's she, the cat's mother?' line to me when I was a little girl. It would be hard to find a more misogynist woman tbh.

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

That is what this refers to.

Doesn't that make the whole, "My pronouns are" movement kind of redundant.

If a she is dropped out of hearing does it still validate?

@MaudTheInvincible

My mum used to do the 'who's she, the cat's mother?' line to me when I was a little girl. It would be hard to find a more misogynist woman tbh.

This is the first thing that came to mind - my mum/nan used to say it all the time.

I’m a teacher and I dislike the use of ‘she’ AND ‘he’, but only when the person in question is present, it’s like negating their presence. I’d that person is now there. Nope. Pronouns are fair game.

*if that person isn’t there

@merrymouse

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

That is what this refers to.

Yes, this is what I was taught too.

I'd never noticed that there wasn't an equivalent for males, but of course you're right!

I read this as old-fashioned chivalry, similar to how a woman would be referred to as Mrs/Miss Smith while their male relative might just be Smith. I still find it jarring that some newspapers refer to women as "Smith", to be honest. It seems disrespectful.

The women in question weren't there. My mother wasn't being linguistically or grammatically polite or correct, she would have just heard the phrase somewhere and decided to use it on the one person she was able to bully.

I’ve noticed similar, people will often say “lady” instead of “woman”. But man is fine. E.g. to a child to mind the lady.

@merrymouse

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

That is what this refers to.

This

FWIW I use this phrase but also he/the cat’s father as applicable

@merrymouse

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

That is what this refers to.

That's how I understand it. It was used when talking openly about someone in the third person when they were present, and could be included or acknowledged.

@MaudTheInvincible

The women in question weren't there. My mother wasn't being linguistically or grammatically polite or correct, she would have just heard the phrase somewhere and decided to use it on the one person she was able to bully.

Poor you. Yep. She was using it completely incorrectly if the 'she' in question wasn't present/ close by. I always felt it was ruder to say that to a child, in front of someone, than the child using the third person in someone's presence (even if used in context).

It's a horrible saying but there is a special kind of childish dismissiveness of older women that it was sort of appropriate to address if used in the right way.

There is a sort of irony to the compelled pronouns and everybody stating their preferred ones, 'use these words when you talk about me to someone else', but you do use the third person in someone's presence, such as to clarify a point. 'I think what x is trying to say us that she ...'. Sort of thing.

I think it is rude to refer to someone by she or he for that matter rather than their name in some circumstances. In emails for example when referring to a colleague or another person I will use the persons name rather than she. I think it is politer.

@DryHeave

I’ve noticed similar, people will often say “lady” instead of “woman”. But man is fine. E.g. to a child to mind the lady.

My mother in law was horrified when I referred to someone (can't remember who) as a woman, or that woman, rather than a lady or that lady. I have a vague sense of it somehow implying moral failings, a kind of 'no better than she ought to be' kind of thing, though I don't really know why.

who's she, the cat's mother

My mum used to say that to me. Didn't realise it was so widespread! But I never thought of it as gender specific, more that it was disrespectful to refer to someone by a pronoun for some reason. Only certain people, like family members.

I never understood that phrase or the indignation

I always felt it was ruder to say that to a child, in front of someone, than the child using the third person in someone's presence

good point, I hate people rudely demanding politeness

@merrymouse

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

That is what this refers to.

I know what you mean, but generally from what I have noticed children were/are never told off as badly for calling someone 'he', for some reason 'she' appears to be more ruder than 'he', but why? This was the point I was making, there's no male equivalent to that old-fashioned phrase, as if people didn't think it was quite as bad to refer to somene as 'he' instead of their name.

I have rarely heard the phrase about "the cat's mother" myself. I also find it a horrible phrase, why not just say "she has a name"? It sounds much less harsh and condescending and it simply explains the point as in "he has a name".

@zanahoria

I never understood that phrase or the indignation

I haven't fully, as I said in my last post, it would be better to just say "she has a name". As I said, children have never been told off as severely for saying 'he'.

It seems slightly misogynistic to me, as if 'she' was once a dirty word, rather than simply implying someone has a name.

@bourbonne

I'd never noticed that there wasn't an equivalent for males, but of course you're right!

I read this as old-fashioned chivalry, similar to how a woman would be referred to as Mrs/Miss Smith while their male relative might just be Smith. I still find it jarring that some newspapers refer to women as "Smith", to be honest. It seems disrespectful.

Why would referring to a woman by surname be disrespectful? I dislike chivalry myself, I think there should be a much more universal standard of politeness. Good manners shouldn't mean treating women differently to men.

I don't really see why referring to a woman by last name would be more disrespectful than referring to a man by last name. Although of course Mr Smith would be polite

I think the meaning of this phrase has been lost over the years, possibly because what it's used to counter isn't so common.

It's when people use 'she' instead of my wife, my girlfriend or (woman's name( when they haven't first clarified who they are talking about.

E.g.

"Alright Tony, what did you get up to last night."

"I had the house to myself last night. She was out with her friends."

@NotTerfNorCis

who's she, the cat's mother

My mum used to say that to me. Didn't realise it was so widespread! But I never thought of it as gender specific, more that it was disrespectful to refer to someone by a pronoun for some reason. Only certain people, like family members.

I thought of it as gender specific, (and a bit anti-feminist) because there's no male equivalent. What did your mum say when you referred to family members as 'he'? I think you are right it being used about family members.

@SunsetBeetch

I think the meaning of this phrase has been lost over the years, possibly because what it's used to counter isn't so common.

It's when people use 'she' instead of my wife, my girlfriend or (woman's name( when they haven't first clarified who they are talking about.

E.g.

"Alright Tony, what did you get up to last night."

"I had the house to myself last night. She was out with her friends."

I thought it was usually used by a mother or grandmother when a child rudely referred to them as 'she', as in "SHE said I could have a drink"

When someone uses 'he' instead of my husband, boyfriend, partner nothing would probably be said in relation to the use of 'he' instead of the man's name. That was the point I was making, that although referring to someone in the third person doesn't sound polite, men are likely to be less offended by 'he'.

Because it is used as a denigrating phrase. Talking about a women in the third person in the first instance reduces her to a nobody in her own right. It is done deliberately by some people to infer that the women is either so forgettable you can’t be bothered to remember her name, or so bad her name can’t be mentioned.
It is not done innocently by adults. Children should be taught to use names where they are known in the first instance when beginning a conversation. Hence who’s she the cats mother....
Imho men rarely get called he in the same way ..they are either called by their name, their occupation role, or simply referred to as the man.