The word 'she' being ruder than the word 'he'

[Blackcountryman12]

I noticed a post in another topic from a few months ago where a member said they were brought up to believe 'she' was a rude word and when they referred to adult relatives as 'she' instead of their name, even though they weren't saying 'she' in a rude way, their mum would tell them off with that old-fashioned phrase "who's she, the cat's mother" (A phrase I can't stand), yet they were never told off for calling a man 'he' instead of using his name.

Referring to a man as 'he' instead of his name doesn't especially seem to be seen as offensive, hence no-one saying "who's he, that cat's whatever", so what was considered so rude about referring to a woman as 'she' instead of her name that led to that harsh, snooty and daft phrase about some imaginary cat and one of its parents?

The saying seemed to imply more than the woman being referred to has a name, it seemed to also mean "don't call someone 'she' because it's very rude". I have noticed men being called 'he' including in situations like "HE said that" and they weren't offended at being called 'he'.

The phrase is "who's she?" because it's a phrase that originates in reaction to unthinking sexism and misogyny. It was women whose names were forgotten and omitted; women who were talked about in their presence like they weren't there.

@Blackcountryman12 I do like chivalry, and I'm afraid I don't have a well-thought-out academic rebuttal for why... I do ponder about it sometimes, but for now it's something I'm content to disagree on. I don't want to unthinkingly adopt positions that I don't truly believe in and don't resonate with me. Sorry to derail

@30julytoday @PotholeHellhole Thanks for your really interesting comments, you have both given really good insight about the sexism and misogyny I suggested that resulted in 'she' being seen as ruder than 'he' and negative connotations of the word as well. You have both hit it on the head.

With children being taught to use names, they don't seem to be told off as severely for using 'he' instead of a man's name. Certainly, no-one says "who's he, the cat's father" or "the dog's uncle" or whatever, so what would be said?

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

Obviously it's fine to refer to someone using a 3rd person pronoun once you have actually mentioned their name once though? Otherwise you'd have to keep repeating their name, which would sound ridiculous!

Someone mentioned lady vs woman. I work in publishing and I've often tried to sort out my own feelings about this, from an equality pov. I've come to the conclusion that most of us these days say "men/women" if they're not present - you would probably not say "that lady who was in that film", you'd say "woman". But - if they're present, you'd sound rude if you said "woman", so you say e.g to your dch, "That lady was here before you, so let her go first" kind of thing. You wouldn't there call her a woman. It's a funny one. I hate "lady" (stuff like "lady pilot" - just no) but I would use it to say, e.g, "Do you work with that German lady?", not "...woman".

Interesting point OP.

The words around women and thinking about it, our bodies are much more loaded. While men's are more neutral.

Titles. Mrs, miss, Ms. Endless opinions arguments annoyance etc. Men, Mr. Easy.

Man. Woman/ lady. Woman feels a bit rude. Lady is very loaded. 'she's no lady' etc. Loads of nuance for the female ones. That man over there. Ask the man. Easy. No problem.

Women being called Mrs John Smith when they are ms Jean brown. Again arguments, annoyance. Mr John Smith. Job done. No probs.

Bodies-. Willy. A 'friendly' term universally understood.
Girls. Vulva, vagina, fanny, flower, front bottom, fairy, noo noo etc etc etc. Thread after thread. No universally understood 'friendly' term.

It's a thing. For sure.

@merrymouse

You shouldn’t refer to somebody with a third person pronoun when they are present.

That is what this refers to.

Exactly.

The expression only works because it is female cats are she but the point of using it is to emphasise it is rude to refer to a person as he or she in their presence.

Certainly, no-one says "who's he, the cat's father" or "the dog's uncle" or whatever, so what would be said?

Well, no, but you are spectacularly missing the point

I remember my dad's (who I didn't grow up with) ex wife getting really get up about this once when I went to visit them. I was about 16 and had never come across it as a 'thing' before and couldn't fathom why she was offended by it. No one had ever told me it was rude before. She also didn't say anything about saying 'he', but I was so confused by the idea that I didn't question that.

I've heard this a lot when I was a kid and it was said when the woman wasn't there!

Also agree there's no male equivalent.

Maybe it's a generational thing but to be honest I think the OP is both clutching at straws at something to be offended by and missing the point.

Obviously it's fine to refer to someone using a 3rd person pronoun once you have actually mentioned their name once though? Otherwise you'd have to keep repeating their name, which would sound ridiculous!

No it wouldn't- what an odd comment.

Anna that's exactly it.

The thing is always in the difference between the sexes.

Ask the man over there is fine.
Why is woman replaced with lady in that type of situation? That's the question.

MissBarbary not at all!

In a meeting you would say. I was very interested in what John said and I think he's got a good point.

(of course if Jane made a point it would not be commented upon into John repeated it and then everyone could congratulate him on making a good point. Sorry couldn't help it! Happens way too often).

@NiceGerbil

MissBarbary not at all!

In a meeting you would say. I was very interested in what John said and I think he's got a good point.

Well you would there.

But if John made another good point even a few minutes later you wouldn't say. "He's made another good point" . You would use his name again. (Or rather I hope you would)

Out of interest does anyone know what 'who's she the cats mother' means and why there's not a male equivalent?

A female cat would normally be called a “she cat” when I was small. The correct name is a Queen I think ? But She was all I ever heard, hence the cat’s mother.

@MissBarbary

Certainly, no-one says "who's he, the cat's father" or "the dog's uncle" or whatever, so what would be said?

Well, no, but you are spectacularly missing the point

@MissBarbary I'm not missing the point, what I'm saying is that it generally appears a bit less rude to refer to a man in the third person, hence no male equivalent. It suggests 'she' is ruder than he.

It would be more equal in terms of feminism to have a male counterpart or to just simply say "she/he has a name". It sounds much better to say that, rather than use a stuffy phrase about some imaginary cat, and it gets the point across better

@NiceGerbil

Out of interest does anyone know what 'who's she the cats mother' means and why there's not a male equivalent?

I think there's not a male equivalent because many years ago it was thought to be even more impolite to use 'she' than 'he', even though they are equivalent pronouns. It was like 'she' was almost a rude word when used in the third person to someone present

It would be more equal in terms of feminism to have a male counterpart or to just simply say "she/he has a name". It sounds much better to say that, rather than use a stuffy phrase about some imaginary cat, and it gets the point across better

Actually people do say "he has a name". I've heard it and I've said it. The idea that many years ago it was thought to be even more impolite to use 'she' than 'he', even though they are equivalent pronouns that she is more rude is simply not true.

The phrase which seems to be causing you so many problems illustrates more forcefully just how rude it is not to use a person's name.

I really don't think that's it, OP.

It's just that people haven't talked about men as if they're not there on anywhere near the same scale as they have women.

@MissBarbary

It would be more equal in terms of feminism to have a male counterpart or to just simply say "she/he has a name". It sounds much better to say that, rather than use a stuffy phrase about some imaginary cat, and it gets the point across better

Actually people do say "he has a name". I've heard it and I've said it. The idea that many years ago it was thought to be even more impolite to use 'she' than 'he', even though they are equivalent pronouns that she is more rude is simply not true.

The phrase which seems to be causing you so many problems illustrates more forcefully just how rude it is not to use a person's name.

@MissBarbary What I mean is no similar phrase was used more forcefully for calling a man 'he', that's what gives the impression that 'she' was somehow ruder than 'he', it just seems a bit odd and biased.

What I also meant was saying "she has a name" sounds more equal to "he has a name". It just seems a bit harsh to use a forceful phrase for one gender

@PotholeHellhole You've made a very good point again and it illustrated what I was saying. Thanks

No, OP, there simply isn't a similar phrase which could be used for "he"

The phrase is useful because it emphasises how rude it is not to use a name- not that it's especially rude to say "she" but clearly you are determined to find a problem where there isn't one.

I don't think it's a "stuffy phrase" - is there a touch of ageism creeping in there?

@MissBarbary It just seems biased and anti-feminist that there's no matching phrase for 'he', IMO it would just sound better to say 'she has a name'.

I didn't realise the phrase was even use much now, it sounds quaint and old-fashioned to me