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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What happened to the Eddie I Guardian thread?

102 replies

LarryUnderwood · 12/03/2021 16:03

I was looking for the details of where to complain to the guardian about their headings and positioning for this, but the thread has gone poof!

OP posts:
WarriorN · 12/03/2021 18:28

And then Hattestone has the gall to write this article.

A very sensible quote from a woman included, c'mon Simon, surely you get it?

twitter.com/shattenstone/status/1370340110328291335?s=21

WarriorN · 12/03/2021 18:29

Can't add photo, Quote:

"Women are being silenced in every single way. They are not being allowed to express their desire to be safe."

MmeMarsaud · 12/03/2021 18:33

What is really infuriating is that EI's boob envy affliction is as plain as day, but woe betide anyone who extrapolates and enunciates the unmentionable from EI's own words.

And in other Guardian news, below the headline:

Women/ Men must challenge other men on women's safety, campaigner says

They have:

Sam Smith/ Singer excluded from gendered categories at 2021 Brit Awards

Diddums. As a victim of a stalking, an attack, and a subsequent police and court experience that was arguably worse than the attack, I'd like to be excluded from gendered categories when it comes to my personal safety please.

ListeningQuietly · 12/03/2021 18:33

I do feel sorry for the Wiki editors here
as the leading man
now says they are a woman
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Minutes_to_Midnight

LarryUnderwood · 12/03/2021 18:38

Oh wow, I didnt expect so many replies! I have emailed the culture desk and the guardian editorial desk, saying this:
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to express my deep concern and anger at the publication of today's interview with Eddie Izzard, in the context of this week's shocking events around women's safety and murder rates.

I wish to state firstly that I have the greatest respect for Eddie Izzard's right to live and identify in a way that is authentic. This is in no way a complaint about the subject of the interview, their identity or their right to present and talk about it as they wish.

My concern is related to the Guardian's Editorial Code area 5 - intrusion into grief or shock.

This week has seen a collectively appalled response to the brutal murder of Sarah Everard, alongside the (annual) reading of the Counting Dead Women femicide list in Parliament. As shown on the front page of the Guardian today, women across the UK are frightened, shocked and griefstricken at the way in which our lives are governed by male violence, regardless of our self-identity. Juxtaposing this coverage on the front page alongside a headline that Eddie Izzard 'has always had boob envy' and then later - presumably after complaints were made - changed to 'I've been promoted to she - it's an honour', is at best tone-deaf and at worst evidence of the Guardian's total disregard for the issues that women face in public life.

The interview itself then contains two sections which I feel are particularly concerning, given this week's events and public outpouring of shock. Firstly:

'For her first half century, boy mode had dominated, and now it was time for girl mode to take centre stage, but on occasions she would still like the freedom to be a he. She soon discovered that wasn’t an option, though.'

The implication here is that somehow the perceived inability to switch between 'boy mode' and 'girl mode' in the eyes of others is of concern. Perhaps on another day this is a discussion to be had. But when the headlines are dominated by pictures of women - and girls (because adult females are women, not girls) who have been abused and slaughtered because of their position as females in a misogynistic society, it is offensive to suggest that self-identity defines or influences public perception of sex. If this were the case, the women on the front page of your paper could have avoided death by identifying as men.

The second section refers to dealing with abuse and harassment. Eddie Izzard, and no transperson, should have to deal with harassment or abuse because of the way they present or are perceived by others. It is unacceptable. However, I am again concerned by the below quote with regard to ways of dealing with street harassment.

“I was the right person to come out because if people were going to hurl abuse at me in the streets, as they have done, I would hurl it back. Sometimes it would just be us standing in the street swapping abuse or if they fight me, I’ll fight them back.”

My concern stems from the unquestioned way this is presented in the interview, as if this is a perfectly normal, reasonable response for a womandealing with harassment (given that Eddie Izzard is referred to as a woman throughout the interview). As this week has shown us, it is not. Women's behaviour in public is subject to constant scrutiny and the suggestion that we can or should - if we are 'feisty' enough - fight back is yet another way of expecting women to make changes to deal with men's poor behaviour.

I appreciate that questions around gender identity cause high emotion. The Guardian has made clear over the last few years its editorial position on this. It may be one I personally disagree with, but generally speaking it is important that all sides are publicised. However, the publication of this interview on this day in particular and containing the above references, is offensive to all female victims of male harassment and violence. Which, as we know, is approximately 100% of women

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 12/03/2021 19:56

I'm still trying to understand how
somebody as intelligent as Eddie
can rationalise using male privilege to star in a film he wrote
and play a male character
while also wanting to be accepted as a woman
and talking about picking what sex he is on different days
while still as a burly bloke
NEVER facing the risk of assault that real women face.

I do wonder what pressure he has been put under to conform.

The Guardian are enabling misogyny
and I applaud Marina Hyde for highlighting the reality for XX humans
that XY humans will never understand

It would be funny if it were not so sad.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 12/03/2021 20:25

I looked at that front page and wondered why there was a picture of Myra Hindley along with all the murdered women. Oh dear. It isn't even as if there were that much real resemblance: it must have been something about the expression that did it.

McDuffy · 12/03/2021 20:55

Excellent complaint letter, OP 👏

Loopyloututu2 · 12/03/2021 21:01

Women should stop buying/subscribing to the guardian then. Hit them where it hurts! Your letter is really good OP.

Sidesaladofchips · 12/03/2021 21:04

@CallforHecate

So Eddie can make personal remarks about our bodies on the front page of a national newspaper but we are not permitted to respond by discussing it, is that the way of things now?
This
LarryUnderwood · 12/03/2021 21:36

I'm still reeling at the sheer front the Guardian has to publish this in the same issue as their front page. I knew they were crap but it really is a new low. I wonder if I'll get a reply Hmm

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 12/03/2021 22:08

That’s a great letter, larry. Mine was a lot less polite. I also asked if anyone at the Grauniad had ever heard of (so called) honour killings, to be able to put such a frivolous, nonsensical use of the word next to a list of women dead at the hands of men, knowing the list included victims of just that.

I also pointed out that people knocking on 60 have neither boy nor girl mode, being in late middle age.

SittingAround1 · 12/03/2021 22:43

Great letter , especially pointing out how EI deals with abuse. It would be positively dangerous for a woman to react like that and fight back.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/03/2021 23:38

Great letter - wonder when all the deeply nasty thread re Meghan Markle will be zapped on the same grounds as the one about Eddie.

SirVixofVixHall · 12/03/2021 23:57

@Floisme

It's a funny old world when an aspiring politician can talk openly about their 'boob envy', when a professional journalist feels no compulsion to explore further, when a 'quality' newspaper can print without comment but, if I want to talk about it, I have to choose my words with the care of a precision engineer.
Quite .
SirVixofVixHall · 13/03/2021 01:00

I find an adult male referring to themselves as “girl” truly offensive.
Why are we supposed to accept this, think that this is great ?
I have actual girls. My eldest girl is 16, and has seen some of the coverage of the reaction to Sarah’s death. She was saying this evening that she is really worried about going to University because she is afraid to be in a city, where she would have to walk alone. She was talking about an emergency thing to press on her ‘phone. She is anxious and scared. This is what actual girls are feeling. An extraordinarily clever girl scared about going to University, something she has looked forward to for years, because she is frightened for her safety.
A whole world away from Eddie and his “if they shout at me I shout back” . Clueless about what being a girl means.
And for the women shoring this whole thing up ? I am actually starting to despise them, and the harm they do to girls.

NotBadConsidering · 13/03/2021 04:54

Why is it when public figures say things in public, in publications that the whole of the general public can read, that reveal their attitudes and personality to the public, that we can’t publicly comment on it here?

Labobo · 13/03/2021 08:22

@SirVixofVixHall

I find an adult male referring to themselves as “girl” truly offensive. Why are we supposed to accept this, think that this is great ? I have actual girls. My eldest girl is 16, and has seen some of the coverage of the reaction to Sarah’s death. She was saying this evening that she is really worried about going to University because she is afraid to be in a city, where she would have to walk alone. She was talking about an emergency thing to press on her ‘phone. She is anxious and scared. This is what actual girls are feeling. An extraordinarily clever girl scared about going to University, something she has looked forward to for years, because she is frightened for her safety. A whole world away from Eddie and his “if they shout at me I shout back” . Clueless about what being a girl means. And for the women shoring this whole thing up ? I am actually starting to despise them, and the harm they do to girls.
Well said.
Labobo · 13/03/2021 08:25

@LarryUnderwood

Oh wow, I didnt expect so many replies! I have emailed the culture desk and the guardian editorial desk, saying this: Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to express my deep concern and anger at the publication of today's interview with Eddie Izzard, in the context of this week's shocking events around women's safety and murder rates.

I wish to state firstly that I have the greatest respect for Eddie Izzard's right to live and identify in a way that is authentic. This is in no way a complaint about the subject of the interview, their identity or their right to present and talk about it as they wish.

My concern is related to the Guardian's Editorial Code area 5 - intrusion into grief or shock.

This week has seen a collectively appalled response to the brutal murder of Sarah Everard, alongside the (annual) reading of the Counting Dead Women femicide list in Parliament. As shown on the front page of the Guardian today, women across the UK are frightened, shocked and griefstricken at the way in which our lives are governed by male violence, regardless of our self-identity. Juxtaposing this coverage on the front page alongside a headline that Eddie Izzard 'has always had boob envy' and then later - presumably after complaints were made - changed to 'I've been promoted to she - it's an honour', is at best tone-deaf and at worst evidence of the Guardian's total disregard for the issues that women face in public life.

The interview itself then contains two sections which I feel are particularly concerning, given this week's events and public outpouring of shock. Firstly:

'For her first half century, boy mode had dominated, and now it was time for girl mode to take centre stage, but on occasions she would still like the freedom to be a he. She soon discovered that wasn’t an option, though.'

The implication here is that somehow the perceived inability to switch between 'boy mode' and 'girl mode' in the eyes of others is of concern. Perhaps on another day this is a discussion to be had. But when the headlines are dominated by pictures of women - and girls (because adult females are women, not girls) who have been abused and slaughtered because of their position as females in a misogynistic society, it is offensive to suggest that self-identity defines or influences public perception of sex. If this were the case, the women on the front page of your paper could have avoided death by identifying as men.

The second section refers to dealing with abuse and harassment. Eddie Izzard, and no transperson, should have to deal with harassment or abuse because of the way they present or are perceived by others. It is unacceptable. However, I am again concerned by the below quote with regard to ways of dealing with street harassment.

“I was the right person to come out because if people were going to hurl abuse at me in the streets, as they have done, I would hurl it back. Sometimes it would just be us standing in the street swapping abuse or if they fight me, I’ll fight them back.”

My concern stems from the unquestioned way this is presented in the interview, as if this is a perfectly normal, reasonable response for a womandealing with harassment (given that Eddie Izzard is referred to as a woman throughout the interview). As this week has shown us, it is not. Women's behaviour in public is subject to constant scrutiny and the suggestion that we can or should - if we are 'feisty' enough - fight back is yet another way of expecting women to make changes to deal with men's poor behaviour.

I appreciate that questions around gender identity cause high emotion. The Guardian has made clear over the last few years its editorial position on this. It may be one I personally disagree with, but generally speaking it is important that all sides are publicised. However, the publication of this interview on this day in particular and containing the above references, is offensive to all female victims of male harassment and violence. Which, as we know, is approximately 100% of women

Have you heard back yet? They get in touch pretty quickly if they are going to print your letter. Did you also send it to the letters page? It deserves to be printed and it will be very interesting to see if they do choose to print it or not, because they print pretty much everything DH ever sends them.
guinnessguzzler · 13/03/2021 08:26

Excellent letter, OP, well done.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 13/03/2021 08:26

It's the undertone (which I am sure EI didnt intend, not least because I doubt EI had any knowledge of the positioning of the front page) that the women killed didnt shout back, fight back.
The whole thing screams that we are just womaning wrong.

Evarish · 13/03/2021 08:29

[quote MightyMike]Eddie isn't considered a woman by another trans woman, it's not only us old TERFs who are fed up with her.

Disclaimer: not saying India Willoughby's views are right or endorsing what she says

[/quote] Eddie isn't considered a trans woman by herself. She's genderfluid.

For people stressing out about her way too much, you'd think even five seconds was spent on her gender, which you seem to have an issue with, but apparently not enough to know what her gender is.

zanahoria · 13/03/2021 08:37

It is an excellent letter, although may be too long for them to publish. I used to write to them often about ten years back and found that it was hard to get anything over one hundred words printed as they tend to use only about one or two longers letters a day and they were from more recognised names than mine

Zeev · 13/03/2021 08:38

@NotBadConsidering

Why is it when public figures say things in public, in publications that the whole of the general public can read, that reveal their attitudes and personality to the public, that we can’t publicly comment on it here?
That's a very good question. If I understand correctly, we aren't (always) allowed to comment on individuals.

Of course, we are also not permitted to generalise.

YukoandHiro · 13/03/2021 08:39

Does anyone else think a secret TERF signed this page off to spark the debate and actually make their point that it's grotesque to conflate EI's experiences with those of natal women?