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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Jane Clare Jones on Twitter this morning

89 replies

CaveMum · 11/03/2021 10:24

This thread says everything for me. I’ve shared it across all my own social media this morning.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1369914137090854914.html

OP posts:
Aha85 · 11/03/2021 12:15

You think it's only trans women who do this stuff? Seriously? Have you been hiding under a rock?

Only male people (including transwomen) can commit rape. Male people are also responsible for 98% of sexual assaults according to official MOJ stats.

Not all male people are like that, but there's this thing called safeguarding that you don't seem to be aware of. Any decent male person will understand that they are part of a group that poses a particular threat to female people and will not invade their safe spaces. Decent male people understand that even if they don't intend to cause harm, their presence makes it a mixed sex space and therefore removes the safeguarding element that keeps women safe.
See eg www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3famp

I'm quite happy to campaign for gender-neutral third spaces for those who want them alongside the existing facilities, but male people should not be in female peoples' safe spaces ever. These are my boundaries.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/03/2021 12:21

There's a Reclaim These Streets planned for London Fields, Hackney this Saturday for those who can't make Clapham Common:

Saturday, 13 March 2021 London Fields Lido from 18:00-19:00

Covid protocols in place.

www.facebook.com/events/856534278413341/

Helleofabore · 11/03/2021 12:29

You think it's only trans women who do this stuff? Seriously? Have you been hiding under a rock?

So you have been demanding of evidence on your other thread.

Could you please post the peer reviewed evidence that any subset of males, ie. regardless of their gender, commit crimes at either the rate of females or the same type of crime that females commit?

We are all looking forward to this, because we have been searching and have found nothing. Only the opposite, that the rate of crime persists and the type of crime.

FamilyOfAliens · 11/03/2021 12:38

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]There's a Reclaim These Streets planned for London Fields, Hackney this Saturday for those who can't make Clapham Common:

Saturday, 13 March 2021 London Fields Lido from 18:00-19:00

Covid protocols in place.

www.facebook.com/events/856534278413341/[/quote]
Brings to mind the Reclaim the Night marches I went on as a student in Leeds at the height of the Peter Sutcliffe murders in 1980-81.

Nothing has changed.

IsabelleSE19 · 11/03/2021 12:41

What's going on with this?

Dr Jane Clare Jones on Twitter this morning
picklemewalnuts · 11/03/2021 12:45

Uppity Puppety, perhaps?

ArabellaScott · 11/03/2021 12:45

Any evidence that transwomen are any less likely to commit sexual or violent offending than any other male?

Male violence remains male violence.

Women can't 'identify' out of it, unfortunately. And the gender identity of the person attacking them means little: men are larger, stronger, and an attack by a male can also carry the danger of unwanted pregnancy.

I'm not scared of lesbians, is the root of it. I am scared of males.

Sexnotgender · 11/03/2021 12:46

@WarOnWomen

I love JCJ.

That article by Paris Lees is something else. This is kind of my problem with the debate around street attention. It’s part of a culture that infantilises women and teaches them to be constantly afraid. I wasn’t brought up that way and I don’t feel frightened when some spunky dude comes and talks to me. There. That's the reason. Angry

There must be a reason Paris doesn’t feel fear like women do. Can’t possibly think what it is.
PenguindreamsofDraco · 11/03/2021 12:47

*1st rule of transmisogyny, pertinent to this post:

  1. Trans women are responsible for what cis men do.*

Remind us again, how do we tell them apart?

Sexnotgender · 11/03/2021 12:52

The whole transwomen vs “cis” men is a very clever sleight of hand.

Male violence is the issue, regardless of some nebulous gender identity.

oxalisRed · 11/03/2021 13:07

FamilyOfAliens
Brings to mind the Reclaim the Night marches I went on as a student in Leeds at the height of the Peter Sutcliffe murders in 1980-81.

Nothing has changed.

Add #MeToo to that list. Heartbreaking that nothing really changes, including the persistent attempts to erase what few rights women have fought for and won.

Sexnotgender · 11/03/2021 13:08

@oxalisRed

FamilyOfAliens Brings to mind the Reclaim the Night marches I went on as a student in Leeds at the height of the Peter Sutcliffe murders in 1980-81.

Nothing has changed.

Add #MeToo to that list. Heartbreaking that nothing really changes, including the persistent attempts to erase what few rights women have fought for and won.

My mum said the same. I’m too young to have been around for that but it’s exactly the same narrative.
Signalbox · 11/03/2021 13:15

Any evidence that transwomen are any less likely to commit sexual or violent offending than any other male?

No there isn't. But there is this...

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

UppityPuppity · 11/03/2021 14:33

IsabelleSE19

What's going on with this?

Just thought it would be useful to have quick plagiarise to point out the obvious flaw in Shizuku’s post.

If a ‘trans’ gender identity for males correlated with reduced sexual assaults/violence against women etc comparable to female levels - I think we’d all be much more supportive of that narrative. But it’s false. Surely if it was true, by definition it would also mean trans men should be much more violent? Awaiting the evidence for that... don’t think it will come .

ArabellaScott · 11/03/2021 14:45

Thanks, Signal. Yes, that's not hugely reassuring.

IsabelleSE19 · 11/03/2021 14:48

Sorry Uppity – read it in such a hurry I failed to spot the difference! Blush

SisterWendyBuckett · 11/03/2021 16:07

There seems to be a lot of anger around today because women and their bodies are being centred.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/03/2021 16:09

@SisterWendyBuckett

There seems to be a lot of anger around today because women and their bodies are being centred.
Yes.

The primary importance of stating NAMALT rather than addressing the actual matter at hand is strong in this thread at present:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4189216-too-many-men

UppityPuppity · 11/03/2021 16:12

Sorry Uppity – read it in such a hurry I failed to spot the difference!

No worries! Amazing how a slight change of wording completely changes a meaning. I thought that with all our recent training to be vigilant on this point, it would have been spotted!Smile

IsabelleSE19 · 11/03/2021 20:20

No worries! Amazing how a slight change of wording completely changes a meaning. I thought that with all our recent training to be vigilant on this point, it would have been spotted!

The worst thing is that I was reading it in a hurry because I was supposed to be doing my job – proofreading!

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:54

@ArabellaScott

Any evidence that transwomen are any less likely to commit sexual or violent offending than any other male?

Male violence remains male violence.

Women can't 'identify' out of it, unfortunately. And the gender identity of the person attacking them means little: men are larger, stronger, and an attack by a male can also carry the danger of unwanted pregnancy.

I'm not scared of lesbians, is the root of it. I am scared of males.

Trans women aren't male, but if you want evidence, try this study:

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

And here you can see the lead scientist, Cecilia Dhejne, discussing the results:

www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

Also, you might want to read this with regards to trans prisoners:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

The 125 transgender prisoners counted in the survey are more likely to be serving longer sentences.

That's because prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference - so are less likely to be counted.

The MoJ explained that prisoners serving long sentences are more likely to be serving time for sexual offences than those on shorter sentences.

Trans prisoners on shorter sentences - who won't be in the survey - are less likely to be sex offenders.

That means that it's unlikely that as many as half of all transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence - once you take into account those trans prisoners who weren't surveyed.

Sexnotgender · 11/03/2021 20:55

Trans women aren't male

What are they then? Why are they trans?

flowery · 11/03/2021 20:57

”Trans women aren't male”

Eh? Of course they are. That’s the whole point of being transgender- having a gender identity that you feel doesn’t align with your sex. If they were female they wouldn’t be transgender.

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 21:01

@flowery

”Trans women aren't male”

Eh? Of course they are. That’s the whole point of being transgender- having a gender identity that you feel doesn’t align with your sex. If they were female they wouldn’t be transgender.

You have much to learn about trans people and about sex.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/03/2021 21:03

The PLoS paper has been discussed a number of times and putting this search string to an SE will retrieve many of them:

site:mumsnet.com journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

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