The cognitive dissonance from 'TWAW' women

[CheeryTreeBlossom]

I've seen a few things today on social media which got me thinking: How do "liberal" feminists square up the argument that being a women is a feeling vs the experience we all know?

1. The awful disappearance of Sarah Everard has led to an outpouring on twitter of women highlighting how they are essentially bound by a curfew all the time (and not just when the police "helpfully suggest" it) and feel the fear of being followed/harassed/assaulted by men in public constantly.

2. Kamala Harris posted a video on Instagram about the 2.5million women how have left the workforce in the US (similar stats on Guardian about the UK) and it's driven by women being in lower paid work and not having access to childcare when schools close.

3. This scene from Fleabag appeared on my Facebook feed where Kristin Scott Thomas gives a powerful speech about how women are constantly affected by their bodies through the start of menstruation to menopause. Lots of positive articles from the time it aired:
   www.refinery29.com/en-gb/fleabag-season-2-episode-3

And yet these same women would call others bigots for saying biology matters and instead that feelings are more important to being a woman than anything else?
That to dislike finding myself in an enclosed public space with someone visibly male is phobic, and that our reproductively system has a huge impact in our lives and why women are still discriminated against?

Argh. I'm just sick of being the only one in my friends group that seems to see the hypocrisy.
They say JKR is a nasty transphobe but equally complain about the patriarchy and how childcare costs put women put of work

@bourbonne

I don't think anyone is pushing in earnest for all men to have a permanent 6pm curfew, are they? Certainly, there are the practical issues you raise Rooty, like keeping domestic abusers at home with their victims, plus the fact that street rapists tend not to obey rules anyway.

I think the point is that it's a very powerful thought experiment, to imagine the freedom and safety that women would have without the threat of male violence.

And to make us think - well, can decent men be a bit more proactive here? Instead of being blissfully oblivious, as many are?

Yes, but that involves them changing their behaviour as many have posted on social media, but does nothing to solve the problem of the men doing the acts. They don't care.

Also @CuriousaboutSamphire I don't have happy support for third spaces. It makes me sad it's needed.

I do think many of the women going "yay" at the male curfew talking point (which isn't a particularly original one, but I agree it is striking) are perfect examples of the cognitive dissonance referred to in the OP.

And I don't mean on MN, I mean FB and Twitter.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And I don't mean on MN, I mean FB and Twitter.

Oh defo. A lot of "we're not saying all men are a threat, we're saying we can't tell which ones are". Mmm. I'd like to think they are still stuck on the idea that all TWs have "had the op" and made this big, sincere commitment to the sisterhood, but how can you be on Twitter as much as they are and not see what's going on? Unless you don't want to, I guess?

@RootyT00t

In answer to your question Curious, it was an example of how we don't always nail our colours.

You are obviously anti women violence but you don't agree with the curfew.

I am obviously against many of the trans issues but see issues with some of the arguments.

It's allowed.

Because despite your foot stamping and demanding, the world is not black and white.

I don't agree with something that hasn't been seriously mooted.

Which issues, which arguments?

This is a forum for discussion... I am not foot stamping, I am discussing!

Mmm. I'd like to think they are still stuck on the idea that all TWs have "had the op"

I think the middle aged and older ones are, not so much the younger ones. They have bought into the "female penis" concept.

Sorry, I don't know how to do the quoty thing or italics on my phone. I'll just put ^^ before the comments to which I'm replying.

^^There was a good thread on this the other day:

Thanks, will read.

^^I don't see any benefit for women and girls to have it defined in terms of sex role stereotypes. Can I ask why you do?

I don't! My point was that it carries some of those meanings already, and has done for as long as the stereotypes have existed.

^^Or even just being able to state definitions would suffice - "for the purpose of this book/bill/survey, we use 'woman' to mean human female of any age".

Yes, exactly, that's what I meant. In those contexts, 'woman' needs to be explicitly defined anyway.

^^If we invented a new word ("womyn", "superwoman", whatever) for "adult human female", they'd be just as upset.You've got it the wrong way round - ask them "why is it necessary to never have a word to exclusively denote 'human females'"?

Wouldn't they argue that that's the purpose 'cis woman' serves? (I'm not agreeing with them, by the way.)

^^And "why is it necessary to never have anything specifically for females without including any male who wants in?"

Just in case this needs to be said: I definitely think it should be possible (and is necessary) to have things specifically for females without including any males.

Thanks for all the other replies, too!

If TWAW why do I and many other women have to save up 10K to have a breast reduction when the other real women get the non-medical sexually alluring DDs for free?

Wouldn't they argue that that's the purpose 'cis woman' serves? (I'm not agreeing with them, by the way.)

No, because we are including female people who fall under the trans umbrella, as they have many of the same issues as other female people.

Also, I just don't see why I should pretend I have anything in common with these male people. I don't. Why should I?

The very same people who insist that women-only facilities and sports will necessitate 'genital inspections' are all over Twitter, sharing stories of being scared by men in public spaces. By their own logic they are bigots for assuming. How do they live with the intellectual dishonesty?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Wouldn't they argue that that's the purpose 'cis woman' serves? (I'm not agreeing with them, by the way.)

No, because we are including female people who fall under the trans umbrella, as they have many of the same issues as other female people.

Also, I just don't see why I should pretend I have anything in common with these male people. I don't. Why should I?

Brings to mind IrisChild's Poem - I will not say it

I love all her poems!

My point was that it carries some of those meanings already, and has done for as long as the stereotypes have existed.

Yes, but why would we seek to legitimise those stereotypes?

If you want to see the Burn of the Day on twitter, it's here:

twitter.com/jo_bartosch/status/1370103035830140931

I'd like to think they are still stuck on the idea that all TWs have "had the op".

Only 2% have the op.

Aw, I read 'bum of the day'.

Good, though!

I have noticed for ages that there's particular kind of academic self-identifying as a fierce feminist who is especially vociferous about men/toxic men etc and will happily tweet 'please can you just not' etc about men at conferences - and who are also massively into the TWAW business. It's never made sense, it's just more jarring now.

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.

Agreed.

The wilful misunderstanding of intersectionality and sex castes is strong in some.

[quote nauticant]If you want to see the Burn of the Day on twitter, it's here:

twitter.com/jo_bartosch/status/1370103035830140931[/quote]
That is delicious!

Frowns at ArabellaScott for lowering the tone

@CuriousaboutSamphire telling me to nail my colours and being unable to accept some of is see things in grey and are not automatically thread detailing self indulgent goading arseholes is not discussing, it's foot stamping.

Arabella I also read bum of the day!

@TheMerrickBoy

I have noticed for ages that there's particular kind of academic self-identifying as a fierce feminist who is especially vociferous about men/toxic men etc and will happily tweet 'please can you just not' etc about men at conferences - and who are also massively into the TWAW business. It's never made sense, it's just more jarring now.

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.

I am into TWAW but also don't believe that all men are anything.

Do you actually want to understand that mindset or do you just want to moan?

@Okbussitout

Do you actually want to understand that mindset or do you just want to moan?

Which mindset?