TW nominated for the womens prize for fiction

[Kit19]

for fucks fucking sake!

"Peters’ longlisting comes after organisers clarified in 2020 that it was open to any “cis woman, a transgender woman or anyone who is legally defined as a woman or of the female sex”. “It’s a prize for women, and trans women are women, so …” said chair of judges and author Bernardine Evaristo."

Big thanks to this thread for bringing 'Mermaids of the Black Conch' to my awareness.

Yes me too, just bought it.

The similarity with 50 Shades struck me too. It was roundly lampooned and ridiculed by the media, and ignored completely by the literary establishment who considered it to be silly women's fiction and utterly beneath their notice, even though in the UK it's the fastest selling paperback of all time.

I wonder what the crucial difference could be between EL James's sneered-at book and Torrey Peters' Women's Prize listed one?

I agree.

From the linked interview.

Cauterucci: I felt like it was a privilege as a cis reader to be welcomed into this world in a nondidactic way, to be trusted to understand the story and come to my own conclusions about it. In fact, you dedicate the book to cis women. You seem to have a lot of empathy for cis women. Where does that come from?

Hilarious. I've come across Cauterucci before, bemoaning that "lesbian" is too good a term to be left to actual boring old "basic" lesbian women.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/12/young-queer-women-dont-like-lesbian-as-a-name-heres-why.html

Some years ago, a close friend and I developed a not-so-subtle code for queer women too basic for our tastes: We’d make an “L” with our thumbs and forefingers against our foreheads, like the loser sign that was popular when we were in middle school. In this case, the “L” stood for lesbian.

Yes when it boils down to it -

If peters is exposing and deploring the misogyny of “sissy” culture, and/or writing about the trans experience in anything other than full on twaw mode (and after all it’s partly about detransition and how the detrans character can’t be arsed with the hassles of being trans) - then peters is exploring the trans experience in a nuanced way that acknowledges the maleness of tw. Which is interesting, and I would applaud that, but then that would put peters in the position of questioning the trans ideology mantra that says twa 100% w and should be in things like women’s prize long lists.

If OTOH it’s just sissy porn and misogyny all the way through, it’s no better than 50 shades so why is it there?

Aren’t there special awards for that type of writing?

@merrymouse

it’s a novel about the trans experience

Agree - but if those extracts had been in JK Rowling’s last book (as opposed to what was in her actual book which didn’t include a trans character), I think they would have been described as transphobic.

I think reviewers/judges have accepted them as not transphobic because the author is trans - the perspective matters.

However, if you then use the same argument to say that this is not misogyny, the logic starts to fall apart. The judges are saying that it is a female perspective, but I don’t think that stands up to any level of scrutiny.

Yes, absolutely, I agree. I think that's what I was (clumsily) trying to say. If a (natal) woman writer created a male or trans character expressing these views, it would be called out for transphobia.

But because this is "own voices" - written by a trans writer - then it's OK. Despite its misogyny. So is the character speaking for some or all trans women, about the female/trans experience? What are we supposed to take from it, if not the inherent misogyny?

Was that extract from the book up for the prize? It's just utterly gross misogyny. And dangerous with it. What women around with other women sharing stories of DV and it's understood that they're all revelling in the feeling of femininity that, boasting? About how violent their partner is gives them.

The idea that women enjoy being attacked by their partners is out and out gross.

Women are constantly told that our words harm various groups of men. And these words, that women not so deep down enjoy a good kicking (and presumably sexual violence as well let's not be coy) is up for a fucking prize???

Ah but it's totes groundbreaking, boundary smashing, or something. I'm sure "intersectional" feminists like Evaristo think these perspectives on male violence against women are extremely important.

Yes, absolutely, I agree. I think that's what I was (clumsily) trying to say. If a (natal) woman writer created a male or trans character expressing these views, it would be called out for transphobia.

Oh, definitely. We can't even discuss the thing he writes about in connection to this very book without getting deletions.

Was that extract from the book up for the prize?

Looks like it. Same named characters. You can also see a sample without buying if you click the 'see more' on Amazon. I've also seen other extracts floating round and its all the same stuff.

If I ever make it on to the Simon Cowell singing competition (what's it called again? is it still on?) I will be entering as an under 25. It doesn't matter how old I actually am in real life years. I identify as under 25. Actually I identify as a 16 year old boy, can I go back to school and get some extra education and A Levels in? Because I do identify that way and otherwise soo ..

It's worth looking at the sample to get a vibe of the book tbh.
It's the first six pages only and it already covers:

• being "put on a leash in the bedroom"
• reference to a man "owning p*y"
• "when a woman begins to notice herself aging, the prospect of making some meaning out of herself grows more and more urgent"
• wanting to be "the knocked up sixteen-year-old from the bad side of town" then referred to as "the easy slut"
• As well as the HIV extract earlier in the thread.

These are direct quotes from the book. Frankly, it couldn't be worse.

It reminds me of Juno Dawson's recent fawned over novel where there was a teenage girl character who liked meeting random men from suburban commuter towns for sex.

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

It's worth looking at the sample to get a vibe of the book tbh. It's the first six pages only and it already covers:

• being "put on a leash in the bedroom"
• reference to a man "owning p*y"
• "when a woman begins to notice herself aging, the prospect of making some meaning out of herself grows more and more urgent"
• wanting to be "the knocked up sixteen-year-old from the bad side of town" then referred to as "the easy slut"
• As well as the HIV extract earlier in the thread.

These are direct quotes from the book. Frankly, it couldn't be worse.

I really like Elizabeth Day, I really hope at some point she calls this out. How could she sit there and read this without seeing what we all see?

I feel so sorry for the 16th woman. What a fucking joke.

Reading those extracts, brought back vividly the experience of reading extracts from ;from Kate Millett's book Sexual Politics in the 1970s. Millett's book provided a feminist analysis, with extensive passages from books written by "literary" male authors that featured degrading views of women and their male view of women's sexuality.

It reminds me of Juno Dawson's recent fawned over novel where there was a teenage girl character who liked meeting random men from suburban commuter towns for sex.

I was just about to say that too.

I like Elizabeth Day but she is quite woke. Also I remember one section of her non-fiction book where she discussed beauty standards or something similar and it was quite shallow analysis.

If Evaristo had a hand in choosing the other judges, presumably she recruited those she thought would support her?

What about Kate Mosse? I used to think she was sound.

How about we crowdfund another £30k for a different award, call it the "16th Woman's Prize for Fiction" which celebrates the writing of real women's experiences. And get it sponsored by a BIOLOGICAL product manufacturer . . .

*From the review "He’s [the detransitionied character] impregnated his boss, Katrina, but isn’t ready for fatherhood, “the one affront to his gender that he still couldn’t stomach”. Could they reinvent parenting and raise this baby as a trio?".

Personally, I think the thing that defines the difference between the male and female experience is the ability to walk away from pregnancy. Nothing more male than having a choice.*

Exactly. Having a sissy fetish and impregnating a woman, then not feeling ready to be a father are two things only men experience. This person's books aren't even about gender neutral things. Not only is the author male and the content misogynistic but the themes are about things only male people experience.

How about we crowdfund another £30k for a different award, call it the "16th Woman's Prize for Fiction" which celebrates the writing of real women's experiences.

Good idea!!

@TheChampagneGalop

How about we crowdfund another £30k for a different award, call it the "16th Woman's Prize for Fiction" which celebrates the writing of real women's experiences.

Good idea!!

Ooh. I'd contribute to that crowdfunder!

Can we protest somehow? I don't care about being called a terf any more.

Fantastic idea.

I see it's already happening on their twitter, but more of a deluge needed!

How about we crowdfund another £30k for a different award, call it the "16th Woman's Prize for Fiction" which celebrates the writing of real women's experiences.

Love this idea!

I love some version of a "16th Woman". I was wracking my brain last night trying to come up with a snappy slogan that would represent the lost woman or girl who was just behind the trans woman for a prize, a medal, a scholarship, a championship, etc...something a PP on another thread just called chilling how we overlook all the missing women/girls when we make "just this little exception."

Olympic podiums have Gold, Silver, Bronze...is it it the "Tin Medal"? The "4th Woman". "Second place?""Half a point disqualified Woman" "16th Woman". It would be wonderful to come up with something that could be used in several scenarios- including shortlists.

I'm struggling to come up with something clever.