Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

I don't mind that gender identity isn't defined, although obviously it's hard not to inadvertently make some mistakes that upset people if we don't really know what it is

I don't see why it necessitates body changes or for that matter name or pronoun changes

I do know how science works. I'm rather more persuaded by those who peer reviewed the studies before publication, than the anonymous people on a notoriously transphobic forum.

If you know how science works, you are no doubt aware of the problems with peer review? It has been long in coming, but the shortcomings as well as the corruption of the process of peer review are finally being discussed publicly.

But even without being aware of these revelations, if you know how science works, you also know that peer review does not seek to ascertain whether the conclusions reached are right or wrong, but only that the authors can show how their conclusions follow from their research, that their data collection meets the field's standards, that the authors have followed their own methodology etc etc. Peer review is meant to assure that a paper is of a sufficiently high standard as a scientific work, no more, no less. It is a kind of quality control, not a mechanism to determine the veracity of the claims made.

That duty falls to those responding after peer review and publication, first in comments, letters to the editor and lengthy responses and rebuttals and then to researchers examining the same issue seeking to replicate or refute the findings. Just in case you missed it, crowd review is increasingly popular in many fields, with those who understand methodology and/or the fields themselves lending their knowledge to analyse papers on public and private forums and messageboards

If you know how science works, you know all of this of course.

So tell me, is there anything in the evidence presented to suggest (even bearing in mind that all studies have limitations) that conversion therapy is harmful to trans people?

The evidence I addressed and which you sought to provide was about the existence of a gender identity universal to all humans. As this evidence does not exist, and you have failed to provide any studies even detailing what exactly conversion therapy in regard to trans people is, I conclude that there is no answer to your question.

What I will freely say is that forced therapies of any kind tend to be harmful to those subjected to them. As you have not deigned to show how this relates to psychological treatments seeking to help those diagnosed with gender dysphoria reconcile mind and body, it remains unclear what you mean when you speak of conversion therapy.

And are there any studies at all suggesting that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans people?

There are studies showing that psychological treatment seeking to aid someone diagnosed with gender dysphoria to reconcile mind and body is at worst harmless and at best beneficial, but I am unclear whether that is what you think of when you say conversion therapy in this regard. It would be helpful if you could explain what you mean so that I can answer properly.

Of all the reverse ferrets I’ve seen so far, “well duh! Of course puberty blockers don’t improve mental health!” is surely the most disturbing and offensive of them all.

Why the HELL are they being given then?

As we've been discussing this, there's been a Twitter spat around Jesse Singal, showing how "conversion therapy" is being defined by some trans activists.

This is one of the loopier activists, having a rant on Substack about how horrible Substack is for letting other people write on it.

Those are just the assholes. Increasingly, Substack is tolerating and funding extreme trans-eliminationist rhetoric: They host Jesse Singal, a high-profile supporter of anti-trans conversion therapy who is also widely known to fixate on and stalk trans women in and around the media industry.

Response from someone defending the accusation:

Singal often advocates for treating childhood gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder in his reporting. Jude’s articulation of that as “anti-trans conversion therapy” is his prerogative and trying to bully him into “correcting” it to fit a construction Singal prefers is scummy

(And as someone else points out - "Sam, man. Everyone who can read this excerpt can see that Singal is reporting the GIC's view. He's not editorializing here or "advocating" — he's reporting what a group of experts thinks. This is really bizarre and crappy. Please don't do this.")

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

I assume OP, being a much more reasonable person, disagrees with the position taken here?

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

It’s a bit like the very very all-encompassing definitions of “transphobia” bandied about.

Such as:

Anything even discussing women’s biology
Anything criticising any transgender person in any way whatever

The one that gets me is that believing there is any conflict of rights is transphobic.

So.... start the list off with women’s rights to be safe in prison or to women’s sports.. no conflicts at all. Apparently. Or if so, it cannot be mentioned and addressed.

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

Unquestioning acceptance is the goal. Hence NoDebate, 'terf' as a slur, any challenge being deemed 'transphobic', and all underpinned wlth threats of rape and violence.

Apart from the fact that I doubt anyone is buying it, if one is writing legislation, one has to have actual definitions, not just sound bites and shouting.

@MeltsAway

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

It’s a bit like the very very all-encompassing definitions of “transphobia” bandied about.

Such as:

Anything even discussing women’s biology
Anything criticising any transgender person in any way whatever

Re what makes someone transphobic: I particularly like the clause, ' refusing to accept gender identity ', see stonewall glossary.

Someone points out the lack of any scientific evidence for a key foundational aspect of my ideology: OK, just postulate that doing that makes one a bad person. Then they will become, as if by magic, a bad person -- so no need to listen to them any more.

As Bertrand Russell once pointed out (in Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy, still a good read), “ The method of 'postulating' what we want has many advantages ; they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil .”

Shizuku's notion of conversion therapy seems to involve seeking similar advantages by the same method, yes.

Re what makes someone transphobic: I particularly like the clause, ' refusing to accept gender identity '

Articles of faith, just like those found in many religions, to proselytize people with.

Detransitioning = apostasy

So, page 24.

Anyone found any evidence at all yet that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans kids? Or are we still stuck with all the evidence pointing to it being harmful?

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2749479

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19361653.2019.1665610?casa_token=Ju_vmjIaQwwAAAAA%3ANvhF59_D87zX7VxfGI6VHBjptF0A6RWHysH9gss2O2B3FpYoP8vuS4jXVzWhvbgeYB5Ghmd-_NtlQQ

Haven't read all the thread but if you could remind me of your definition of gender identity and conversion therapy as I missed them.

One of the human rights is the right to a family, which is why SRS is not required for a gender recognition certificate.
How does that square with creating sterile adults who have no sexual function?

I don’t think we have established what conversion therapy is or who might perform it in the U.K. or what gender identity is.

And yes, it would have been helpful if you could have explained these things earlier.

@merrymouse

And yes, it would have been helpful if you could have explained these things earlier.

Scroll up - it's all there.

remind me of your definition of gender identity and conversion therapy as I missed them

Indeed.

I keep thinking about Humpty Dumpty.

I have. Can’t see anything. What time did you post this explanation?

OP, saw this and thought of you. They discuss What is the Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion therapy? Might be helpful.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/gender-dysphoria-a-therapeutic-model-for-children-and-adolescence-tickets-143682033831

@9toenails

Shizuku you are remorseless. But I note you have not yet addressed the concern expressed by me and some others that your whole enterprise in this thread is vitiated by the non-existence of the basis for your claims, namely gender identity.

To be clear, since there is no scientific evidence that gender identity is real, all your references to scientific study purporting to show the best way of dealing with it are without merit.

Let me just offer you a reference to an article including this as a conclusion. It is by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT: What is gender identity?

Here is a short quotation,
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence ... '

If Byrne is right, and there is no way of detecting the presence of gender identity (other than asking someone if they suffer from it, obviously), then all your 'evidence' is worthless. It would be simple to show he is wrong about this, though: tell us a (scientific) way of detecting its presence.

Without this, of course we draw the obvious conclusion. Do have a read of Alex Byrne's piece, in any case.

Thanks for that link. The definitions of gender identity and gender dysphoria that he quotes from the American Psychological Association (APA) seem more helpful to understanding these terms than most I've seen. The definition of 'gender identity' is taken from Robert Stoller's book 'Sex and Gender', published in 1968:

Gender identity refers to a person’s basic sense of being male, female, or of indeterminate sex

This is what Stoller calls 'core gender identity' or awareness of one's sex. This is the awareness which children acquire early in life as they begin to understand that they belong to one of the two categories of male and female, and that this can't change.

This awareness is similar to the awareness that a child acquires that they are human, rather than a dog or a cat or any other animal or object that they might decide they 'are' when very young.

It is clear from this definition that having a 'gender identity' which doesn't match the sexed body makes no sense, since the awareness of what you are can only match what you are. (There is a mention of where this may be the case in a few extreme examples such as some intersex people - read the article for those details).

The APA definition of gender dysphoria is:

Gender dysphoria refers to the “aversion to some or all of those physical characteristics or social roles that connote one’s own biological sex”

This is helpful because it doesn't use the term 'gender identity' in the definition. It is clear though that a person with this condition has a dislike either of their sexed body or of the stereotypes which society has deemed acceptable for someone of their sex. It's not just about an 'essence' or a 'feeling' of womanliness or manliness.

I recommend reading the whole article.

The opposite of conversion therapy is not "pumping them full of drugs" though, surely? Puberty blockers are no longer considered to be "a reversible pause" , so surely just watching and waiting is 'affirming', not conversion therapy and doesn't lead to irreversible physical damage (that needs to be said how it is), so let's just do that.

@Nellodee

If every trans child becomes a trans adult, are we not missing a great many middle aged transmen?

A great number of middle aged trans men are out there, definitely! Numerous have only just started their transition (as, where trans women were put forwards as people to ridicule, trans men were treated as non-existent until fairly recently), and a fair amount are living their lives contentedly with no one being aware they're trans (either because it's irrelevant or because they're intentionally not sharing being transgender).

Also when you're a 30+ year old guy you tend to not bunch up in support groups and what not, lol. Most of the ones I've had the pleasure of meeting were creators of trans-specific material, running self help groups or I just happened to notice a badge at Pride or a trans event and got talking, otherwise no one really strikes up a conversation to ask if they're trans.

[quote AnneListersHat]OP, saw this and thought of you. They discuss What is the Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion therapy? Might be helpful.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/gender-dysphoria-a-therapeutic-model-for-children-and-adolescence-tickets-143682033831[/quote]
I'm still confused about Susan and Marcus Evans being put in any form of position in therapeutic models for treating gender dysphoria, given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008), and Marcus, who was on a board of governors, never worked with trans kids, has no medical expertise and quotes scientifically irrelevant online surveys as factual diagnostics.

given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008)

Mind you, the confusion being that she claims she left because she 'witnessed a 16 year old being approved for hormone blocking drugs after "just a handful" of consultation sessions', when puberty blockers weren't prescribed to children until 2008, following a conference in September that year, ergo she's not even telling the truth about why she left the Tavistock, let alone the activism that followed an event that never took place.

Thanks, OldCrone
... It is clear from this definition [sc Stoller's] that having a 'gender identity' which doesn't match the sexed body makes no sense, since the awareness of what you are can only match what you are .

Yes. This is stronger than the extract I quoted, in which Byrne considers a (putative, yet to be precisified) definition of 'gender identity' which does fill the bill for genderists. I suspect the stronger conclusion that there is no good sense to be made of 'gender identity' in the context of transgender theory would still be true of any such superseding definition or explanation.

However, we do not need this stronger (' nonsense !') conclusion to gainsay those who, like Shizuku here, make claim to scientific credibility. The weaker point that no way of detecting the presence of gender identity, whatever its precise characterisation, has yet been offered is enough to deny scientific status to any theory that depends on it.

I am not sure Shizuku understands this. But, yes, I also recommend reading the whole article.