Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

Certainly. Let's have a look at some real-life examples:

What Carolyn had to go through was obviously horrific, but you omitted an essential part of that story:

Carolyn Mercer – who was assigned male at birth – had aversion therapy at the age of 17, with the aim to ‘cure’ her from feelings of gender dysphoria. Now 73, Carolyn says that this form of punitive treatment has affected her ability to feel positive emotions – despite the decades that have passed.

The story was from last year, and Carolyn (then 73) was recounting what happened 56 years earlier, in the mid-1960s. The world was a very different place then. Do you have any evidence that such practices continue today in the UK?

The first example isn't conversion therapy - it's a process by which the young woman realised she didn't have a male gender identity.

@Shizuku So you agree that therapy is essential for any child who claims to have an opposite sex gender identity in order to discover whether they are claiming this identity due to abuse or trauma or for another reason such as internalised homophobia or autism?

Do you realise that many transactivists claim that such therapy is conversion therapy and should be banned?

Yes, and sex conversion therapy for children is a much more recent phenomenon, only really becoming more widespread and mainstream in the last 10 years. A victim presented her experiences in the High Court just a few months ago 😔.

So, where are we as we reach page 13?

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

You've had actual science posted, showing that it is harmful, but let's see what the experts say. This link will take you to the positions of

American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

American Academy of Pediatrics

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy

American College of Physicians

American Counseling Association

American Medical Association

American Psychiatric Association

American Psychoanalytic Association

American Psychological Association

American School Counselor Association

American School Health Association

National Association of Social Workers

Pan American Health Organization (PAHO): Regional Office of the World Health Organization

Just the Facts Coalition (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Association of School Administrators, American Counseling Association, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Counselor Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Secondary School Principals, National Association of Social Workers, national Education Association, School Social Work Association of America)

World Psychiatric Association

www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy

And all of them are against you. Of course you are free to disagree, but given that you have not evidence at all to the contrary, and pretty much every expert in the world is telling you that conversion therapy harms trans people, it would be reasonable to conclude that any attempt to remove the T for the conversion therapy ban legislation would be transphobic.

Just a reminder, once again, that the majority of us are in the UK. How many times does America feature in your post?

Shizuku

"Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?"

Neither - it's the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth.

Right. So being trans isn't about gender dysphoria. Or AGP?

Or a lifestyle choice.

But it IS about saying you're trans.

Got it. 👍

And good luck trying to ratify that into legislation.

Also, and of course, this is just a wild guess, it might just account for the fact that it's not actually happening.

@Shizuku

So, where are we as we reach page 13?

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

You've had actual science posted, showing that it is harmful, but let's see what the experts say. This link will take you to the positions of

American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

American Academy of Pediatrics

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy

American College of Physicians

American Counseling Association

American Medical Association

American Psychiatric Association

American Psychoanalytic Association

American Psychological Association

American School Counselor Association

American School Health Association

National Association of Social Workers

Pan American Health Organization (PAHO): Regional Office of the World Health Organization

Just the Facts Coalition (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Association of School Administrators, American Counseling Association, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Counselor Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Secondary School Principals, National Association of Social Workers, national Education Association, School Social Work Association of America)

World Psychiatric Association

www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy

And all of them are against you. Of course you are free to disagree, but given that you have not evidence at all to the contrary, and pretty much every expert in the world is telling you that conversion therapy harms trans people, it would be reasonable to conclude that any attempt to remove the T for the conversion therapy ban legislation would be transphobic.

Ah, and here's me thinking you were talking about the conversion therapy petition in our Parliament, not some other Parliament, in a completely different country.

@Datun

Shizuku

"Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?"

Neither - it's the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth.

Right. So being trans isn't about gender dysphoria. Or AGP?

Or a lifestyle choice.

But it IS about saying you're trans.

Got it. 👍

And good luck trying to ratify that into legislation.

Also, and of course, this is just a wild guess, it might just account for the fact that it's not actually happening.

Right. So being trans isn't about gender dysphoria.

Most trans people experience gender dysphoria, but not all.

Or AGP?

That would just be a sexual fetish. You see it in cis women too:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19591032/

Or a lifestyle choice.

Obviously not.

But it IS about saying you're trans.

Not everyone who is trans will say so. Once again, being trans is the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth. And that remains a fact about you whether or not you say it out loud.

@Doyoumind

Just a reminder, once again, that the majority of us are in the UK. How many times does America feature in your post?

Do you mean that American doctors and scientists are universally wrong about conversion therapy? Or are you saying that conversion therapy harms American trans people but not British trans people?

So, where are we as we reach page 13?

Well

A) you can't define what transgender is. So don't have a hope in hell of defining what conversion therapy is.

B) You are using a case study that's nearly 60 years old.

C) your statistics have been thoroughly pulled apart and shown not to represent your conclusion.

D) you are citing irrelevant organisations from a completely different country to back up your argument in this country.

That would just be a sexual fetish. You see it in cis women too:

Haha! No you don't. No women fetishises the subordinate status of men.

I would leave you to guess why, but I'm not sure your logic would manage to get there.

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

I don't think anyone's arguing taht conversion therapy is harmless or beneficial. But we need more detail about what this 'conversion therapy' is which is currently taking place in the UK.

In your earlier post you linked to:

An article about a 73-year-old transwoman who had conversion therapy in the 1960s (horrific but not current).

An article from Mexico which appeared to be mainly about lesbians being subjected to conversion therapy (horrific but not about 'trans' conversion therapy).

An article from India about someone joining the hijra community - what relevance does this have to the UK?

An article from the USA about a religious person being subjected to conversion therapy by their church. From that article:

There were times when members from both of these groups came to my home and bagged up hundreds of dollars worth of women’s clothing and accessories I owned, often ending their visits by praying over me. But taking away my things couldn’t and didn’t change who I am.

I don't really understand this. What do clothes have to do with someone's gender identity if it's not about stereotypes?

And a Pink News article. I couldn't make much sense of that, it wasn't even clear which country or countries the young people in that story were from. But it did have a link to this site to back up this claim: What the three young trans men were subjected to broadly falls in line with what leading “gender critical” therapists recommend: isolate them, cut them off from support, don’t use their preferred name or pronouns, deny their identity, try to make them accept and love being female, and attack the “delusion”.

When I looked at the link it didn't appear to say that at all.

Many of those American organisations advocate sex conversion therapy too, despite its lack of benefit and evidence of harm. I don’t know why we can’t just leave kids alone.

"A) you can't define what transgender is. So don't have a hope in hell of defining what conversion therapy is."

It's a mystery to you, but not to trans people or the doctors and scientists who work with trans people or millions and millions of cis people. Not your fault, I appreciate, but kind of irrelevant - there are always some people who don't understand something in medicine or biology.

"B) You are using a case study that's nearly 60 years old."

It's an example of what conversion therapy is. That's a constant - it was conversion therapy 60 years ago, it's conversion therapy now.

"C) your statistics have been thoroughly pulled apart and shown not to represent your conclusion."

They haven't, but if you think they have, you can always contact the scientists involved - I'm sure they'll welcome your input.

"D) you are citing irrelevant organisations from a completely different country to back up your argument in this country."

Do you mean that American doctors and scientists are universally wrong about conversion therapy? Or are you saying that conversion therapy harms American trans people but not British trans people?

Or are you saying that conversion therapy harms American trans people but not British trans people?

Conversion therapy taking place in America harms American trans people but not British trans people (unless they live in America).

It's a mystery to you, but not to trans people or the doctors and scientists who work with trans

You just said, it's not a lifestyle choice, it's not gender dysphoria, it's not AGP.

So now you're saying it is? I'm so confused.

A) you can't define what transgender is. So don't have a hope in hell of defining what conversion therapy is."

It's a mystery to you, but not to trans people or the doctors and scientists who work with trans people or millions and millions of cis people. Not your fault, I appreciate, but kind of irrelevant - there are always some people who don't understand something in medicine or biology.

But not a mystery to babies, apparently. They know all about being transgender. Ask Diane Ehrensaft.

It's a mystery to you, but not to trans people or the doctors and scientists who work with trans

According to Ray Blanchard, who worked with trans people for the best part of 30 years, the typology is some transwomen have AGP, and some are homosexual transsexuals.

He also concluded that both types are motivated by a romantic/sexual agenda.

You haven't said what other reason there is for being transgender. Do you have any ideas?

I ask again:
What is gender identity?

In scientific, observable, measurable terms

Without resorting to sex stereotypes or gender roles.

And without resorting to a circular definition.

It's an example of what conversion therapy is. That's a constant - it was conversion therapy 60 years ago, it's conversion therapy now.

Well, it would be if it was still happening. Thankfully it isn't.

But again, it's a bit odd what they did considering that gender identity is nothing to do with stereotypes.

She said: ‘I can still smell it. They soaked the electrodes in salt water, in brine, and attached them to my arm. ‘And then from time to time while showing pictures [of women’s clothes or typically feminine things] on the wall, they’d pull the switch and send a pain through my body. ‘The idea was to make me associate the pain with what I wanted to do, and therefore that would stop me wanting to do it.

What have women's clothes and 'feminine things' got to do with this person's 'gender identity' if it's not about stereotypes?

What have women's clothes and 'feminine things' got to do with this person's 'gender identity' if it's not about stereotypes?

I find this very unclear too. I have mostly unisex clothes in my cupboard with maybe 2 dresses rarely worn. And I don’t have many ‘feminine things’.

Does this mean I am not a woman? Ffs.

"They feel like a boy."

That's a different matter - now you are getting into gender identity.

What does this mean? How can a girl 'feel like a boy'? Obviously she can say this, but what does it mean? How would a girl know what it feels like to be a boy (or vice versa)? She has never been one, she can only imagine what it must feel like, but it's no more real than if she said she felt like a cat.

If you want to know how wrong male people get it when they think they know what it feels like to be a woman, have a look at this:
twitter.com/AugustaAndarta/status/1369807644089851906?s=19

Shizuku

You can't define what transgender is. So don't have a hope in hell of defining what conversion therapy is

Its a mystery to you, but not to trans people or the doctors and scientists who work with trans people or millions and millions of cis people. Not your fault, I appreciate, but kind of irrelevant - there are always some people who don't understand something in medicine or biology^

You can't explain it because you don't know. You can't define 'female gender identity ' without recourse to gender stereotypes or circular definitions. Because 'feeling like a woman' is nonsensical - what is this universal woman feeling? How would you know your woman feeling was the same as mine, or the several billion females on earth? And as many women don't have a woman feeling, your logic is that they aren't women.

I honestly don't understand what trans gender conversion therapy is. Telling a man they're not a woman?

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

Mimmy seems to think that not giving a gender questioning child puberty blockers is a type of conversion therapy - not in so many words but she calls it ‘not a neutral act’. This is a concern.

The definition of conversion therapy is extremely important. It could result in a therapist being accused of ‘conversion therapy’ for refusing to give a child puberty blockers.