Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

It crosses the line when you are trying to change a person's gender identity,

I doubt many here are concerned about people's gender identities. It's up to the individual isn't it how they present /feel. It crosses a line when laws/safeguards/ logic and common sense are pushed aside for this.

Can research into gender identity, or research into correlations of characteristics or events with gender identity, ever properly be called scientific if there is no such thing as gender identity?

OK, some people claim to have a gender identity, but as far as I can see no-one has yet managed an informative (non-circular) explanation of what 'gender identity' means. Likewise, there seems to be no scientific way of determining gender identity.

Some deny the existence of gender identity, indeed. Is there any evidence they are mistaken?

There are those who claim to possess a gender identity, just as though there are those who claim to possess an immortal soul or a human energy field (an 'aura'). And, indeed, it may be worth considering traumas suffered by those who are told their auras are mythical, perhaps particularly young people so advised. But assimilating that to (so-called) 'conversion 'therapy'' inflicted on gay people would be unconscionable, would it not?

Ok. I'm reading your definition and trying to see how it works in real life scenarios. There is no situation where trying to change someone's sexuality would be appropriate.

However, say a child comes to an adult saying they feel they are really a boy, having been born a girl.

The adult asks why they believe this (is that question allowed, or is it conversion therapy? We don't know. There is no clear definition).

The child says that don't want to have their hair long. They want it short like the boys. They want to play football and all of their friends are boys. They feel like a boy.

The adult says that girls can do and be all of those things and talks to the peer group about how girls and boys can do and be whatever they want and no bullying or mean comments will be tolerated.

Child feels happier and accepted as a girl who likes to play with the boys.

Has this child been converted? We're does exploring the root causes of the wish to change sex become an attempt to dissuade?

How should these situations play out?

Conversion therapy" refers to any form of treatment or psychotherapy which aims to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

Shizuku

It's well documented that young women who have suffered from sexual trauma will sometimes identify as male, in order to avoid more trauma in the future.

One such woman came out as a transman. It was patently obvious to her therapist why, since she had been raped by her father for years. She spoke of imagining that if she could remove her vagina, she would remove the abuse.

After therapy, she concluded, as had the therapist, that her reason for transitioning was trauma. And so she stopped. And started talking about it to other young women.

This comes under your definition of 'conversion therapy'.

A woman whose husband is AGP, and wants him to stop, also comes under your definition of 'conversion therapy'.

Pretending it's the same as trying to persuade a homosexual that they are heterosexual, is pushing an agenda that is fairly obvious for everyone to see.

Trying to find a cure for crippling gender dysphoria? Also 'conversion therapy'.

Research into detransitioning? Also 'conversion therapy'.

Not giving experimental drugs to legally unconsenting minors? I'm guessing that might also be construed as 'conversion therapy'.

Utterly transparent.

It crosses the line when you are trying to change a person's gender identity, so you can be as supportive as you like, help them deal with any and all comorbidities, help them come to terms with any and all the traumas they may or may not have suffered, but don't try to change their gender identity.

Well. This is better. But it still has some issues. However, it is also much more nuanced than the other statements of definition that you have posted. Can you see that?

So, how do you then address an instance where treatment for that comorbidity then inadvertently means that person no longer identifies as the other sex? And the patient is happy with their progress and no longer feels the degree of poor mental health they had.

Is that good therapy, or conversion therapy?

@Datun

Trying to find a cure for crippling gender dysphoria? Also 'conversion therapy'.

Research into detransitioning? Also 'conversion therapy'.

Not giving experimental drugs to legally unconsenting minors? I'm guessing that might also be construed as 'conversion therapy'.

Utterly transparent.

This. There is no other area of medicine, psychiatry or psychology where the insistence is to stop looking for answers. Stop looking for more effective treatments. Stop doing the research.

The reason the T issue is so very different from the LGB issue is that homosexuality was finally (thankfully) deemed not to be a medical or mental health issue - so medicalising it stopped.

The absolute opposite of true of the T. It is completely medicalised whether or not it should be. And no one seems to be allowed to look for a different solution.

We are told the gender identity is exactly like homosexuality. It is not an illness, it is a fact.

So why the medicine to treat it? And why would you not want the best medicine possible? What if the medical community discovered that no one needs to go through these procedures - it actually is exactly like being gay and you don't need to be 'fixed' medically. You can just be yourself and be accepted. Isn't that the best outcome?

It was for the gay community.

So many therapists at the Tavistock have said that transitioning is the behaviour of someone trying to address an underlying problem or issue.

What Shizuku appears to be proposing is that you can address the underlying problem, but must try and retain the symptom, for ideological reasons.

Transition is not a sexual orientation. There are numerous reasons for people to transition, from AGP, to sexual trauma, to internalised or imposed homophobia.

This determination to couple it to LGB is wearing rather thin.

I'm not here to debate your definitions, or do your additional research for you

Bet you a dollar, Shizuku that every single woman on this thread has done a ton more research than you. We don't need you to do "additional research" - though we are always interested in proper data. Which you have not yet provided.

And definitions are important, especially when you are trying to analyse data. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand the problems.

@Shizuku

Meanwhile, here's another study showing the harm:

ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2020.305701

"Results. Relative to young people who had not experienced SOGICE [sexual orientation or gender identity conversion efforts], those who reported undergoing SOGICE were more than twice as likely to report having attempted suicide and having multiple suicide attempts."

"Conclusions. The elevated odds of suicidality observed among young LGBTQ individuals exposed to SOGICE underscore the detrimental effects of this unethical practice in a population that already experiences significantly greater risks for suicidality."

Yes, this is better evidence, because the authors have considered and attempted to control for other factors that might influence suicidal ideation and behaviour.

However it is still problematic, to the point where it is still not possible to draw the conclusion that conversion therapy, as defined by the Trevor Project, causes an increase in suicide attempts.

Data on suicide attempts was time-limited, based on the following survey question:
“During the past 12 months, how many times did you actually attempt suicide?”

Data on conversion therapy had no such time limitations, but referred to lifetime experience, based on the following survey question:
“Have you ever undergone reparative therapy or conversion therapy?”

From these data, there is no way of distinguishing from these data WHEN the suicide attempt occurred relative to the conversion therapy. For all we know, some of those participants attempted suicide BEFORE undergoing conversion therapy. There is simply no way of knowing from the data collected.

(That's even before we get to other problematic issues, e.g.:

• there is no indication in the paper that the terms "reparative therapy" or "conversion therapy" were defined in the survey, or that the difference between the terms was explained at all
• LGBTQ participants were only considered as a single group, with no separation between LGB conversion therapy and T conversion therapy)

Unlike feelings of sexual attraction which are objectively measurable (pupil dilation, heart rate etc), feelings of having a gender are not measurable. One's gender identity is more like one's religious creed it seems to me.

Some people change religion (or become atheist). Not many but it definitely happens. I am sure we all know a few people who converted from one religion to another, or lost faith, or maybe left their childhood religion then bounced around lots of different faiths, some quite obscure.

Changing religion is big deal to adherents of a faith. There are special negative words like apostate and heretic. Some religions refuse to acknowledge conversion, you are only lapsed not lost.

Adherents to the faith react badly to apostates and heretics, including ones they don't know personally. Odd given that there is no way to objectively know which faith, if any, is true.

Why such negativity then? Often a disciple's life is built around their faith being The Truth. When someone who is in the faith, who understands the faith, decides it is not The Truth, well that can be dreadfully destabilising to the disciples. They may feel anger. They may feel unsafe in their own belief. Others may start to question. All faiths are inherently unprovable which is why they require faith, why they are beliefs not facts. Questioning is dangerous to the religion. There is no guarantee that the questioner will decide that this unprovable faith is the right one for them once they start to think about it.

In some countries it is a serious criminal offence to encourage someone to change religion. A person who does convert will face very serious consequences.

In this country we made a choice to step away from that approach. The bloodshed and burnings weren't what we wanted.

As a person who left a religion (for atheism via another religion first) I feel a tremendous sense of familiarity in how some trans activists talk about conversion and gender identity.

I don't want to see missionaries banned. I don't want to see groups offering introduction to faith for the questioning to be banned. Force and threats: bad. Talking, questioning, thinking: good.

@stuckinatrap

Ok. I'm reading your definition and trying to see how it works in real life scenarios. There is no situation where trying to change someone's sexuality would be appropriate.

However, say a child comes to an adult saying they feel they are really a boy, having been born a girl.

The adult asks why they believe this (is that question allowed, or is it conversion therapy? We don't know. There is no clear definition).

The child says that don't want to have their hair long. They want it short like the boys. They want to play football and all of their friends are boys. They feel like a boy.

The adult says that girls can do and be all of those things and talks to the peer group about how girls and boys can do and be whatever they want and no bullying or mean comments will be tolerated.

Child feels happier and accepted as a girl who likes to play with the boys.

Has this child been converted? We're does exploring the root causes of the wish to change sex become an attempt to dissuade?

How should these situations play out?

absolutely. I have been looking at this discussion and the difficulty is that no child is in a vacuum so inevitably is influenced by the people around them and by social media.

In the absence of a definitive test (ideally medical based since much of the 'treatment' for trans identification is medically based), to establish exactly what has caused a particular child to settle on a particular 'gender identity' I think we have to assume it is totally subjective and also possible to influence and therefore can't legislate one way or another re. gender identity.

Some are more blatant than others - a little boy who likes dolls but his parents take them away and say that those toys are for girls could apply child logic and think he is really a girl. If a trusted parent continually tells a child that if they do x then it means they are an xyz, then that child may well believe them.

That is why we are encouraged not to label children by behaviour - I have never labelled my kids as 'the bright one' 'the grumpy one' etc because these labels inform the child's view of themselves and they can feel internal pressure to live up to that image.

We have specific examples of parents so determined that their child will not grow up gay or lesbian that they end up influencing them to be trans. Do we have any specific examples of parents influencing children in any other direction?

Do you think it would have been criminal for an adult to try to talk Keira Bell out of transitioning when she was a teenager?

@30PercentRecycled

Do you think it would have been criminal for an adult to try to talk Keira Bell out of transitioning when she was a teenager?

It's not even as far as 'talking her out of it' though, is it? It is exploring things with an open mind with young people questioning this. There is a difference between going in with the agenda of changing someone's mind and just talking about it in a therapeutic and supportive way.

There seems to be no distinction in the vague definition of conversion therapy here, though.

It crosses the line when you are trying to change a person's gender identity, so you can be as supportive as you like, help them deal with any and all comorbidities, help them come to terms with any and all the traumas they may or may not have suffered, but don't try to change their gender identity.

But we still don't have a definition of what a gender identity is, how it can be changed or what would change in a person's life if they did change their gender identity.

@Shizuku, can you explain clearly what conversion therapy to change someone's 'gender identity' would look like? There is one part of the description which you posted which I really don't understand.

"Conversion therapy refers to any of several dangerous and discredited practices aimed at changing an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity. For example, that could mean attempting to change someone’s sexual orientation from lesbian, gay, or bisexual to straight or their gender identity from transgender or nonbinary to cisgender. And it could include efforts to change a person’s gender expression (to make a person act more stereotypically masculine or feminine, for example), or to reduce or eliminate sexual or romantic attraction or feelings toward a person of the same gender."

What does it mean to "change someone’s gender identity from transgender or nonbinary to cisgender"? This is listed separately from their gender expression (which is a term I do understand - although I wish there were no such thing and we could all wear/do what we wanted to without having such a label), so it's not about outward appearance.

What does it mean to "change someone’s gender identity from transgender or nonbinary to cisgender"?

Well quite.

Shizuku

Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?

In which case, finding the reasons for the persons gender dysphoria, and treating it, could mean they don't need to be transgender any more.

If you don't want to find out reasons why people have gender dysphoria?

So simply put, if we don't know what it is, how could we avoid accidentally trying to change it?

And secondly
I still don't see why physical interventions and other material changes don't count as conversions

"Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?"

Neither - it's the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth.

"I still don't see why physical interventions and other material changes don't count as conversions"

That's not what conversion therapy means. Scroll up for definitions.

"@Shizuku, can you explain clearly what conversion therapy to change someone's 'gender identity' would look like? "

Certainly. Let's have a look at some real-life examples:

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/10/02/conversion-therapy-trans-wildnerness-programmes-gender-identity-critical-brynn-tannehill/

metro.co.uk/2020/07/20/lasting-effects-conversion-therapy-show-why-need-ban-now-12982315/

This ‘therapy’ (Carolyn doesn’t like the word, but stresses that she did enter into it voluntarily) saw her strapped to a wooden chair in a dark room, with electrodes fastened to her arms. She said: ‘I can still smell it. They soaked the electrodes in salt water, in brine, and attached them to my arm. ‘And then from time to time while showing pictures [of women’s clothes or typically feminine things] on the wall, they’d pull the switch and send a pain through my body. ‘The idea was to make me associate the pain with what I wanted to do, and therefore that would stop me wanting to do it. ‘Effectively what it did was not make me hate that aspect of me. It made me hate me because it reinforced that I was wrong; I was evil, and so I deserved to be punished. And that was inflicted as part of NHS treatment.

epgn.com/2018/12/06/conversion-therapy-hurts-trans-women-too-a-trans-survivor-speaks-out/

news.trust.org/item/20200817164912-ao5ri/

www.thenewsminute.com/article/they-tied-me-sedated-me-probe-lgbtqi-conversion-therapy-kerala-tnm-143963

Ann Marie (name changed), a trans woman who was forced into conversion therapy in 2014, calls conversion therapy a ‘cis-hetero fantasy’.

Ann was taken to a rehabilitation centre for addicts in Thiruvananthapuram, for a three-month treatment in 2014. This, after her family believed a rumour that she had joined the hijra community in Bengaluru, and had begun to abuse drugs. The website of the organisation — which hasn’t responded to TNM’s calls and emails — claims that the main source of the budget for the centre is a grant from the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment, Government of India.

Ann, who was discharged in September 2014, describes the centre as being specifically designed to torture vulnerable individuals. It was surrounded by a wall at least four metres high. “Four male staff tied my hand and legs and forcibly sedated me. I felt dizzy after the injection. I slept most of the days and woke up only for food. I felt exhausted, dizzy and my body was imbalanced. I was in a half-conscious state and injected with lots of medicines,” she says.

During the treatment, she was never once taken for a consultation with a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist. Advised by an elder inmate from Delhi, she decided to act as an obedient inmate to ease her treatment. Upon her insistence, Ann was allowed to meet the clinical psychologist with whom she came out about her gender identity, but she was not heard.

I’m going to start my own definition then.

“Sex Conversion Therapy”

The dangerous practice of telling people, particularly children they can be the opposite sex to what they are, and facilitating that with hormonal therapy and/or surgery. Knowing that sex is immutable, attempts to change it result in short, medium, and long term harm both physically and psychologically.

I’m going to campaign to add that onto any Conversion Therapy Bill to be passed. I can’t see how anyone would object, given how horrific it is.

@Datun

Conversion therapy" refers to any form of treatment or psychotherapy which aims to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

Shizuku

It's well documented that young women who have suffered from sexual trauma will sometimes identify as male, in order to avoid more trauma in the future.

One such woman came out as a transman. It was patently obvious to her therapist why, since she had been raped by her father for years. She spoke of imagining that if she could remove her vagina, she would remove the abuse.

After therapy, she concluded, as had the therapist, that her reason for transitioning was trauma. And so she stopped. And started talking about it to other young women.

This comes under your definition of 'conversion therapy'.

A woman whose husband is AGP, and wants him to stop, also comes under your definition of 'conversion therapy'.

Pretending it's the same as trying to persuade a homosexual that they are heterosexual, is pushing an agenda that is fairly obvious for everyone to see.

The first example isn't conversion therapy - it's a process by which the young woman realised she didn't have a male gender identity.

The second isn't conversion therapy either - wanting someone to be different than they are is not the same thing as trying to change their gender identity.

Conversion therapy in trans people is any attempt to change their gender identity from what it actually is, to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Victims of sex conversion therapy often describe how no one helped their mental state and they were given hormones with minimal consultations. This has left them with permanent damage to their bodies. Some even had their breasts removed, only to need to crowdfund to pay for reconstructive surgery to fix it. Many report the need for a hysterectomy due to uterine pain from the hormone treatments that formed part of sex conversion therapy.

Survivors of sex conversion therapy have struggled to have their voices heard, with denial of their existence, shutting down of forums where they can discuss such matters, and proponents of sex conversion therapy active of Twitter campaigning loudly for it to continue.

So you realise that if you don't like rape you must have a male gender identity?

I ding know if I should report that as it is so hurtful or let it stand to show you up for who you are

I’d still like someone to explain and define “gender identity “ WITHOUT resort to stereotypes or “feelings” which can’t be accounted for materially.

"However, say a child comes to an adult saying they feel they are really a boy, having been born a girl. The adult asks why they believe this (is that question allowed, or is it conversion therapy?"

It's allowed - asking someone about how they feel is not the same thing as trying to change their gender identity.

"The child says that don't want to have their hair long. They want it short like the boys. They want to play football and all of their friends are boys."

Some trans girls are like that too:

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

"They feel like a boy."

That's a different matter - now you are getting into gender identity.

"The adult says that girls can do and be all of those things and talks to the peer group about how girls and boys can do and be whatever they want and no bullying or mean comments will be tolerated."

Which is exactly what they should say.

"Child feels happier and accepted as a girl who likes to play with the boys."

So, she's just a cis tomboy, not a trans boy.

"Has this child been converted?"

No.

"We're does exploring the root causes of the wish to change sex become an attempt to dissuade? "

Hold on, you appear to be talking about 2 different children. If they were assigned female at birth but feel like a boy and which to "change sex" then that's a different child to the one who "feels happier and accepted as a girl who likes to play with the boys". I'm getting the impression that you don't know the difference between gender identity and gendered behaviour.