Tuesday 9th March - could be a big day

[Xanthangum]

1. Helen Staniland and Glinner giving evidence to the Commons

1. Fair Play For Women VS UK Statistics Authority at Royal Courts of Justice at 10am

1. The Court of Appeal and Harry/ We Are Fair Cop - The Court of Appeal will examine the validity of the College of Police Hate Crimes Guidance

I wanted to start a thread where any major decisions or outcomes and links to anyone live tweeting or online footage. See you back here tomorrow!

@Xanthangum

Judge "I'm having difficulty understanding"

that's 'cos it's all bobbins!

🤣🤣🤣

JE: "Sex can include a range of possible concepts; biological, social and so on". A 'modern dictionary definition' includes social aspects of sex. /29

@gardenbird48

I remain bewildered. If people fill in the sex question with their self identified sex and then choose not to complete the optional GI question (which some of mimmy’s followers have said) - they are literally erasing trans people from the data and will undermine the argument for trans specific services including the new GIDS clinics. Bizarre.

So do I.

But secrecy is a recurring theme.

From the original GRA.

Also, all the Awareness and PR releases, yet in spite of all of those, no one is supposed to be able to tell or know.

Keeping fingers crossed for today.

@Xanthangum

Judge "I'm having difficulty understanding"

that's 'cos it's all bobbins!

Go, on who else sniggered when they read that comment from the Judge

Surely "modern dictionaries" don't equal definitions laid down in law

Gosh, this ONS case is more interesting than I originally gave it credit for (sorry FPFW - I mean I thought it might be a drier technical debate re ONS guidance).

I dont think it’s a good sign of a judge is “having difficulty understanding!”

Also I love the word bobbins 😆

Judge "I'm having difficulty understanding"

Mic drop right there!

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Surely "modern dictionaries" don't equal definitions laid down in law

Quite, otherwise what is the point of the GRA/GRC at all?

Judge speak
Surprised = any variant on gobsmacked, appalled, do you think I am stupid, do you think I haven’t spotted the gaping hole in your case.

I am having difficulty understanding = please try again because at the moment your argument is somewhere between unclear and utter bollocks and I am giving you another go so I can decide which it is.

Urban Dictionary for legal terms?

Gardenbird48 - If people fill in the sex question with their self identified sex and then choose not to complete the optional GI question (which some of mimmy’s followers have said) - they are literally erasing trans people from the data and will undermine the argument for trans specific services including the new GIDS clinics. Bizarre.

Exactly this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. They're already crowing about how they've answered "female" on the sex question and "there's nothing anyone can do about it".

As someone who is trans, we are in desperate need of trans-specific services - just as women are in need of women-only services. It's wholly defeating the object of the exercise. I've already completed mine with my correct biological sex and corresponding gender identity.

Utterly sick of all the "warm fuzzy gender feelz" brigade constantly undermining the need for accurate data provision for services for both women and transsexuals. Sadly, based on what's going on in social media, FPFW's much needed win is not going to change anything practically. People are going to lie, and bar cross referencing birth certificates and each individual submission, the data is going to be skewed.

Can the ONS sue Stonewall for providing them with incorrect advice?

JE: Umbrella terms such as race, ethnicity, sex means ONS can ask a range of questions about these topics.

[not clear here if ONS thinks 'age' is an umbrella term 'you're only as old as you feel']

/30

I love the way barristers can turn up an argument to defend the absurd, they are very clever that way. A dictionary definition can now be used as a defence?????

I donated to the crowdfunder for this one.

I've grabbed cuppa and now following as this is easier to follow than the twitter commentary.

Complete nonsense that sex should be 'self determined'. Hopefully this will go our way.

Even if it doesn't, there's some fabulous sunlight

Census is designed to elicit useful data on different topics. Judges asks why did Census amendment add a new gender identity question if it could have been asked under the umbrella of sex. /31

JE says that was so gender identity could be voluntary rather than mandatory (like sex is) /32

I did nearly spit out my coffee at the "maybe census law is a close cousin of stonewall law" tweet..

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Judge speak Surprised = any variant on gobsmacked, appalled, do you think I am stupid, do you think I haven’t spotted the gaping hole in your case.

I am having difficulty understanding = please try again because at the moment your argument is somewhere between unclear and utter bollocks and I am giving you another go so I can decide which it is.

@highame

I love the way barristers can turn up an argument to defend the absurd, they are very clever that way. A dictionary definition can now be used as a defence?????

Could be ground-breaking:

Prosecution: We are using this dictionary definition to prove the Defendants guilt.

Defence: We are using this dictionary definition to prove the Defendant's innocence.

Judge: Which one of those is the modern dictionary definition?

I’ve just sat down with a cuppa to catch up. Even if FPFW don’t win this JR, it’s given me a right ole belly laugh reading the judges comments.

JE: Bellinger defines male and female in reference to marriage only. It cannot be used as a definition for other legislation /33

@HamsterV2
That’s the real crying shame of the whole thing. Trans people need accurate data just as much as women do. How can you advocate for the services you need if the number of trans people is being artificially lowered in the census. It’s going to be a real issue if councils start turning around and saying the census shows fewer trans people than they expected so services can be scaled back or not set up in the first place.