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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following The Science

146 replies

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 20:51

Ok. So I've been down the #superstraight rabbit hole on Twitter and I keep coming across the same comments:

Things like:

'Transwomen are women. Read a science book'

And

'You are scientifically inaccurate. There are more than two biological sexes. Educate yourself'

So I'm attempting educating myself.

What is the science they are referencing? Is it just that DSDs exist (because that isn't evidence of more than 2 sexes as far as I am aware - just that things don't go according to plan sometimes) and clownfish?

Or is there a whole world of science of which I'm ignorant? (Which wouldn't be a surprise as I'm more of a humanities kind of a woman).

This is sort of following on from the whole 'Are we the baddies?' thread. If there is real scientific evidence and I'm wrong, I would like to be educated. It might change my mind.

Does anyone have the studies?

OP posts:
midgedude · 06/03/2021 20:53

Well if you redefine the words woman, sex and science ....

334bu · 06/03/2021 20:54

Of course not it's just nonsense as well as highly insulting to people with dad.

334bu · 06/03/2021 20:54

Dsd

Frogartist · 06/03/2021 20:58

How are they using science to argue that trans women are women?

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 20:59

@Frogartist

How are they using science to argue that trans women are women?
Precisely my question... I have no idea.
OP posts:
midgedude · 06/03/2021 21:00

It's science ,ain't it?

Sounds good
Sows doubt

EndoplasmicReticulum · 06/03/2021 21:08

DSDs exist and clownfish.
That's about the extent of it, as far as I can tell.

I've read a few books.

If you want to follow some science look for "Fond of Beetles" on twitter.

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 21:14

@EndoplasmicReticulum

DSDs exist and clownfish. That's about the extent of it, as far as I can tell.

I've read a few books.

If you want to follow some science look for "Fond of Beetles" on twitter.

I do. Excellent feed it is too. Thanks.
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AnyOldPrion · 06/03/2021 21:21

The problem with this discussion is that parts of the scientific and medical communities have been captured. Half the world seems have jumped on the WPATH bandwagon (and, I understand, have even gone further into activist territory than the current WPATH guidelines) even though the evidence base is notoriously poor and the current cohort of patients has changed so much that alarm bells ought to have been ringing so loud that everyone should have left the building by now.

Add to that the “studies” that set out to find sexed brains on MRI, based on the assumption that any tiny resemblance to the other sex must be significant (though if a man’s face looks feminine, we don’t assume he’s a woman, so why would we if his brain does?) and the adoption of unscientific terminology such as “assigned sex at birth” in various supposed scientific literature, and you have the perfect storm.

I don’t find it hard to argue about the realities of sex and some medical aspects of the transitioning process, but when they start to point out all the groups that support them, it’s easy to see why some of them consider their beliefs are backed by science. For the longest time, I assumed that if the NHS were transitioning children, they probably knew what they were doing. Having read a good deal of the evidence provided, I can’t understand why the medics doing this work seem so convinced, but it is hard to argue against someone when they appear to be backed by the wider medical community.

drspouse · 06/03/2021 21:21

I suspect the science of TWAW is "we asked a bunch of TW if they were women and they said yes".

DadDadDad · 06/03/2021 21:21

On the "there are more than two sexes" or "sex is a spectrum", I've come across threads like this (which has plenty of replies picking it apart): twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184

This offers a refutation: quillette.com/2020/06/07/jk-rowling-is-right-sex-is-real-and-it-is-not-a-spectrum/

In my mind, it's simple because sex has one fundamental purpose: reproduction. Until someone can show that a baby can be made by anything other than combining a particular cell which comes from a male and a particular cell which comes from a female, then I will understand there to be only two sexes.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/03/2021 21:23

@EndoplasmicReticulum

DSDs exist and clownfish. That's about the extent of it, as far as I can tell.

I've read a few books.

If you want to follow some science look for "Fond of Beetles" on twitter.

And hormone washes - don't forget the hormone washes...
DisappearingGirl · 06/03/2021 21:24

What is the science they are referencing? Is it just that DSDs exist (because that isn't evidence of more than 2 sexes as far as I am aware - just that things don't go according to plan sometimes) and clownfish?

Yep I'm pretty sure you've summed up the extent of the science there OP.

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 21:25

@AnyOldPrion

The problem with this discussion is that parts of the scientific and medical communities have been captured. Half the world seems have jumped on the WPATH bandwagon (and, I understand, have even gone further into activist territory than the current WPATH guidelines) even though the evidence base is notoriously poor and the current cohort of patients has changed so much that alarm bells ought to have been ringing so loud that everyone should have left the building by now.

Add to that the “studies” that set out to find sexed brains on MRI, based on the assumption that any tiny resemblance to the other sex must be significant (though if a man’s face looks feminine, we don’t assume he’s a woman, so why would we if his brain does?) and the adoption of unscientific terminology such as “assigned sex at birth” in various supposed scientific literature, and you have the perfect storm.

I don’t find it hard to argue about the realities of sex and some medical aspects of the transitioning process, but when they start to point out all the groups that support them, it’s easy to see why some of them consider their beliefs are backed by science. For the longest time, I assumed that if the NHS were transitioning children, they probably knew what they were doing. Having read a good deal of the evidence provided, I can’t understand why the medics doing this work seem so convinced, but it is hard to argue against someone when they appear to be backed by the wider medical community.

This is absolutely on the money. Thank you. I think this is what is confusing me. Clearly some in the scientific field are at least suggesting that trans-ness has a basis in science and that does make me think 'these people know more about this subject than you - so how could they be wrong'

But there is certainly such a thing as bad science and poor methodology that works backwards (i.e. drawing the conclusion and looking to validate it with evidence rather than the other way round)

OP posts:
Xpectations · 06/03/2021 21:26

It seems to me that there’s a peculiar double standard in which reproductive sex is denied because variations in sexual development, and a simultaneous push to say that sex is determined by the brain, not the reproductive system. They mostly cite neurobiological research to ‘prove’ that males and females have certain differences in brain structures, so a male with a small hippocampal area which is closer in size to a female than another male, is actually female.
Of course, the particular male could be homosexual, not trans.

It just makes me think that brains are more diverse than we thought, because if a male who thought he was canine had a certain brain structure (or response pattern) that was more like the canine control than the human control, it wouldn’t make him a dog.

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 21:27

@DadDadDad

On the "there are more than two sexes" or "sex is a spectrum", I've come across threads like this (which has plenty of replies picking it apart): twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184

This offers a refutation: quillette.com/2020/06/07/jk-rowling-is-right-sex-is-real-and-it-is-not-a-spectrum/

In my mind, it's simple because sex has one fundamental purpose: reproduction. Until someone can show that a baby can be made by anything other than combining a particular cell which comes from a male and a particular cell which comes from a female, then I will understand there to be only two sexes.

Yes. This has always been by understanding too. What would be the evolutionary purpose of a third sex?

Thanks for the input. I'll look at the other threads.

OP posts:
adviceseekingnamechanger · 06/03/2021 21:36

There was this inane article

blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

And then a lot of articles debunking it. Including this excellent thread

twitter.com/zaelefty/status/1280971658719789060?s=21

Essentially, gender is a social construct that varies across cultures, not a biological phenomenon. Sex refers to the reproductive process. 'Scientists' can twist this all they want but at the end of the day there are only two ways to participate in this process, and thus sex is a binary. And it is impossible to change sex: no TW can produce eggs and carry a baby, same as no TM will ever produce sperm.

donquixotedelamancha · 06/03/2021 21:48

The problem with this discussion is that parts of the scientific and medical communities have been captured.

Yes and no. There have been some shameful comments by individuals who should know better and some ridiculous opinion pieces in US journals but you won't find a textbook or a paper in a Scientific journal asserting more two sexes.

The 'science' is entirely restricted to sociology or philosophy papers and assertions by a few gender reassignment surgeons and drug peddling doctors.

It pisses me off royally that some mainstream Science figures are parroting the drivel but there have been similar fads in the past and Science has survived- we shouldn't overstate their tiny influence.

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 21:49

Yup. I completely get that those who believe in gender say it is a spectrum.

I don't believe in gender, I think it's dangerous, restrictive horseshit, but I at least understand the theory behind it.

Sex as not binary, though... nope. I don't get it, but the fact that people keeping saying it's scientific fact just made me want to ask for the evidence... but no one will actually provide any.

I think adviceseekingnamechanger's article is probably the sort of thing I am looking for - someone actually attempting to make the case so I can decide for myself whether it has merit.

If you ask the 'educate yourself' bunch they just call you ignorant or say it's not their job to educate people... I'm not sure how you are meant to engage with them on that basis (although I guess the point is that they don't want you to)

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 06/03/2021 22:07

I suspect the reality is that

a) there is some genetic or hormonal or other physical tendency for some men to be feminine and some women to be masculine.

I also suspect they will eventually return to a consensus that

b) the belief/strong feeling you should have been the opposite sex is a result of crossed-wires in the socialisation process.

For the scientific process to work, you have to begin from a position of sound understanding.

So as a scientist swayed by the trans lobby, you start a study to look at the brains of people who claim a trans identity. You find some differences from the average and thus assume the differences you found are the cause of the trans identity.

But because you limited your study to people who claimed a trans identity (and compared them only with an “average”) you might well have missed something significant.

Had you looked at a much wider selection of people, and taken a further comparison with people who did not claim a trans identity, but were nonetheless masculine women or feminine men, you might well find the same differences are present in those people. You might also try the same with other factors such as homosexuality.

And then you could potentially reach a very different conclusion where the noted differences in brain structure actually related to masculinity and femininity (or homosexuality). Those claiming a trans identity might well, if questioned properly, fall into the other categories as well as the “claiming a trans identity” category.

You would then perhaps try to find the difference between those who claimed a trans identity and those who didn’t and that’s when you might discover b).

But if you only ever do the first experiment as you’re so convinced that “trans identity” is something very real and significant, you could reach quite the wrong conclusion, while still being able to present it convincingly as if it was scientific proof.

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 22:12

@AnyOldPrion

I suspect the reality is that

a) there is some genetic or hormonal or other physical tendency for some men to be feminine and some women to be masculine.

I also suspect they will eventually return to a consensus that

b) the belief/strong feeling you should have been the opposite sex is a result of crossed-wires in the socialisation process.

For the scientific process to work, you have to begin from a position of sound understanding.

So as a scientist swayed by the trans lobby, you start a study to look at the brains of people who claim a trans identity. You find some differences from the average and thus assume the differences you found are the cause of the trans identity.

But because you limited your study to people who claimed a trans identity (and compared them only with an “average”) you might well have missed something significant.

Had you looked at a much wider selection of people, and taken a further comparison with people who did not claim a trans identity, but were nonetheless masculine women or feminine men, you might well find the same differences are present in those people. You might also try the same with other factors such as homosexuality.

And then you could potentially reach a very different conclusion where the noted differences in brain structure actually related to masculinity and femininity (or homosexuality). Those claiming a trans identity might well, if questioned properly, fall into the other categories as well as the “claiming a trans identity” category.

You would then perhaps try to find the difference between those who claimed a trans identity and those who didn’t and that’s when you might discover b).

But if you only ever do the first experiment as you’re so convinced that “trans identity” is something very real and significant, you could reach quite the wrong conclusion, while still being able to present it convincingly as if it was scientific proof.

That makes a glorious amount of sense. Thank you.
OP posts:
Xpectations · 06/03/2021 22:18

Another point to consider with such studies is at what point in transition are they studying trans men/women, ie pre and post x-sex hormones (ie longitudinally), or just post x-sex hormones?

NiceGerbil · 06/03/2021 22:24

Well it's all very interesting.

Science has and always has had massive bias. Is an important point.

When it comes to humans. There have been all sorts of studies and experiments done over a very large time span. These have generally been to show differences between groups, usually with the aim of proving that one group in inferior to another. Naturally less intelligent. Naturally more aggressive. Not having the ability to think rationally or understand certain ideas. I'm sure you can all think of some examples.

Men and women. Very interesting.

While medical science has generally put female specific issues pretty low on the priority, the research in other areas has been plenty. From ancient Greek philosophers, to very old religions, to Victorian sciences and in recent years, the outcome is obvious, but it would be great to prove it.

Of course all of those people from ancient times til recently had no trouble knowing what a woman was. And knowing that they were inferior in a variety of ways.

The attempts to prove that women are naturally less good at various things and more suited to various things. That they are more emotional than men. Etc etc. Has not stopped. The language is more cautious now but studies that look at spatial awareness, empathy etc still are reported.

If we have generally accepted that women and men are equal, varied in personality, good and bad at different things, why does this preoccupation with trying to prove differences persist? I think we all know.

I have seen some things about more physical things. Ability to withstand pain was one. But not ones about whether women and men are physically similar. It's accepted that we have different bodies that work in different ways. That men on the whole are taller, stronger etc. The difference was obvious. In a patriarchal society where height and strength are valued most, the men were best. So no need for a study!

Now we have all sorts going on suddenly to try to prove that men can have 'women's brains' or a personality that is more standard for women. That sort of stuff.

Of course it's pretty hard to argue that a physically healthy fully functional male is really a physically healthy fully functional female for obvious reasons.

So in order to prove the new desired outcome. We have all these studies that focus not on whole people but on obscure tiny parts of different bits of the body.

In one of the inked articles I liked this bit:

'Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). '

Grin

They say to women where is your science to prove that women can't include men?

Of course there isn't really any.

Because everyone knew what the word meant. The words woman and man will have been around all over the world since language started.

It's a definition, not a scientific term.

We're animals, mammals. We know what the sexes are and I'd be surprised if there was a culture in the world that didn't have names for them.

It's like saying this is an elephant. Oh really? Prove to me it's a elephant. How can you be sure this rhino isn't an elephant?

And the laws etc have been changed on the basis of.. clownfish?

Nope.

It's the same old misogyny.

Waitwhat23 · 06/03/2021 22:39

This is what I really don't understand - say you take it at face value that there really is robust scientific evidence that a species (humans) which was previously thought to be dimorphic is no such thing. Would this not be a massive deal (i.e. Nobel prize winning, headlines in all the newspapers, huge amounts of articles/magazine articles, research papers etc)? It's certainly something I think most people would be interested in, particularly as that species is our own.

If that evidence exists, why is this not commonly held knowledge?

Helleofabore · 06/03/2021 22:40

Placemarking because I too want to know this.

We have had numerous new posters claim this recently. And then fail to produce any evidence at all. I would love to read some new resources.

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