Following The Science

[stuckinatrap]

Ok. So I've been down the #superstraight rabbit hole on Twitter and I keep coming across the same comments:

Things like:

'Transwomen are women. Read a science book'

And

'You are scientifically inaccurate. There are more than two biological sexes. Educate yourself'

So I'm attempting educating myself.

What is the science they are referencing? Is it just that DSDs exist (because that isn't evidence of more than 2 sexes as far as I am aware - just that things don't go according to plan sometimes) and clownfish?

Or is there a whole world of science of which I'm ignorant? (Which wouldn't be a surprise as I'm more of a humanities kind of a woman).

This is sort of following on from the whole 'Are we the baddies?' thread. If there is real scientific evidence and I'm wrong, I would like to be educated. It might change my mind.

Does anyone have the studies?

But what is a masculine woman or a feminine man?

That will change dramatically in different countries and through history.

Plenty of men enjoy and have always enjoyed getting done up. The Pharaohs used to love a bit of eyeliner didn't they? Men in England used to wear heels and massive wigs and paint their faces etc etc

And women all around the world do the bulk of the physical labour. In rare tribe type situations the men seem to wear similar levels of adornment to the men (from a few progs I've seen on the telly admittedly!).

The ideas of masculine and feminine oppress both men and women.

They are simply preferences and personality. Same as some people like art and some like sport and some prefer gardening and others reading. There is no need to classify any of this by sex.

And if a man prefers the prevailing things that are 'for women' that doesn't make him female.

Anyway the idea is that internal gender id is not linked to femininity so that's a non starter.

All of this brain scanning theory glosses over the fact that, for a vast majority of TW their trans experience is basically a paraphilia.

The brain is such a mystery still that it is so easy for anyone to say: 'the cause is within the brain - go on and prove it isn't'

But the brain does have some responsibility for hormone regulation, doesn't it? And - as far as I know - it doesn't signal the body to produce opposite sex hormones in trans people, does it? So it can't be a whole brain phenomenon.

I know that a lot of studies have tried to pinpoint the cause of homosexuality, but nothing conclusive has ever been proven yet. I suppose it will be the same for trans identity. The absence of evidence is not, in itself, evidence... so people can use that lack of evidence to argue that any number of things could be the case...

Excellent post AnyOldPrion

Do you know if anyone is doing research that could point to b) or is it something that no researcher would dare consider?

@GNCQ

All of this brain scanning theory glosses over the fact that, for a vast majority of TW their trans experience is basically a paraphilia.

Yes. This is another sticking point for me.

The massive increase in teenage girls coming out as trans + older men coming out as trans looks to all the world like a social or psychological situation rather than a biological one and there are two entirely different driving forces at play.

Something that has occurred to me when looking at all this 'new' science is that even were brain differences found in trans people, or hormonal differences, or chromosomal differences or in fact any other biologically based differences from the sex they wish to transition from - that would not be biological proof that they are actually of the opposite sex. It would be a biological basis for why they are trans.

I keep seeing on FB threads that some XY can get pregnant. That isn't true by any stretch of the imagination is it?

@redsplodge

Something that has occurred to me when looking at all this 'new' science is that even were brain differences found in trans people, or hormonal differences, or chromosomal differences or in fact any other biologically based differences from the sex they wish to transition from - that would not be biological proof that they are actually of the opposite sex. It would be a biological basis for why they are trans.

This is interesting. I hadn't thought about this (I am so glad I posted now. It's given me loads to think about)

Proving a trans brain is still not evidence that trans women are women and trans men are men, is it? It's just proving that some people are wired to be trans...
Thank you!

@TwoBreakingIntoOne

I keep seeing on FB threads that some XY can get pregnant. That isn't true by any stretch of the imagination is it?

This is a whole new level of shit science.

I see so many comment along the lines of 'it's not all as simple as you like to make it out to be.'

But I still think that, by and large, it is quite simple really, isn't it? As much as anything about the human body and brain is.

'I know that a lot of studies have tried to pinpoint the cause of homosexuality, but nothing conclusive has ever been proven yet'

This goes back to my earlier point about groups being studied.

Yes scientists are inquisitive. But there has always seemed to be a disproportionate interest in looking at why people are are perceived to be lesser or aberrant are the subjects. I mean it's couched in different terms now but comes down to the same thing.

If they found a gene for homosexuality. Or proof that women's brains were naturally dominated by emotion and worse at logic. What would be done with that information?

Well the first would mean some regimes testing for the gene somehow and eliminating those babies. Whether through social pressure or more overt means.

The second would be used to explain why it's natural that women are paid less, expected to do the caring, etc etc

The current push is to prove that men can be women 'inside'. Where will that lead us?

Other point is the brain is plastic and it's hard to impossible to separate nature/ nurture.

And I suspect most trans people wouldn't want there to be a definitive test to show if you are trans or not.

The only possible way any XY chromosome person could fall pregnant is if actually they were an XX chromosome person all along (One who identified as etc etc etc gender ideology stuff).

@GNCQ

The only possible way any XY chromosome person could fall pregnant is if actually they were an XX chromosome person all along (One who identified as etc etc etc gender ideology stuff).

There is a syndrome where the Y chromosome or SRY gene isn't expressed so the person is a woman and I believe can be healthy/give birth (unlike women with just one X chromosome - Turner syndrome - women with this tend to have health and fertility problems)

Problem with that GNCQ is the response is. Some XX people can't get pregnant. Gotcha!

I had a real aha moment while watching a clip from the darkhorse podcast where two biologists were discussing trans issues. I almost made a stand alone thread for it, I felt it was so well phrased

"There is something about the desire to avail oneself of scientific help in transitioning while denying the implications of scientific study with respect to things like sex and gender. One ought to be obligated to one side of this. Either you're postmodern and you really think the science stuff is just a posture that people strike (in which case you're wrong but you're entitled to be wrong in that way) or you believe in science and you both want its help but then are in some sense obligated to the method for figuring out what's true and what isn't and it is I think driving many of us crazy to watch, a desire for science a la carte. "

Its not a long clip but the bit that really stood out to me was from 7:10

Hi! First time poster, a friend linked me the thread knowing that I am a big science nerd.
Anyway, I have a bunch of stuff for you.
I'm going to avoid sharing opinion pieces or anything outside of peer-reviewed studies.
Also: apologies in advance for the amount of links I'm about to drop.

I'm not entirely sure what it is you want but, based on how the discussion has gone in the thread so far.
The following focus specifically on DSD and Intersex conditions. This is what I have dating back to 2018.

2020 Gender identity: A psychosocial primer for providing care to patients with a disorder/difference of sex development and their families [individualized care for patients with intersex (Disorders/differences of sex development): Part 2]
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32819812/

2019 Gender dysphoria and XX congenital adrenal hyperplasia: how frequent is it? Is male-sex rearing a good idea?
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30905417/

2019 Gender Identity Fluctuation in a Genetic Female with Late-Onset, Non-Classical Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30911871/

2019 Psychosexual Aspects, Effects of Prenatal Androgen Exposure, and Gender Change in 46,XY Disorders of Sex Development
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30388241/

2019 Response to Apóstolos et al.'s (2018) "Gender Identity and Sexual Function in 46,XX Patients with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia Raised as Males"
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30659438/

2018 Gender Dysphoria and Gender Change in Disorders of Sex Development/Intersex Conditions: Results From the dsd-LIFE Study
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29606626/

2018 Gender Dysphoria in Klinefelter's Syndrome: Three Cases
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28696129/

2018 Gender Identity and Sexual Function in 46,XX Patients with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia Raised as Males
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30291599/

2018 Gender identity in patients with 5-alpha reductase deficiency raised as females
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30297225/

2018 Management of pediatric patients with DSD and ambiguous genitalia: Balancing the child's moral claims to self-determination with parental values and preferences
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29903608/

I can drop another 50 of these dating back to 2004 if you're desperate to see how the focus shifts about and how the way this is studied evolves...but in the interest of saving you a little reading: This is a rather complex area that keeps getting more complicated the more we learn.
Long story short: "this is more complicated than we learned in year 7."

Moving away from DSD/Intersex stuff and back to the quote from your original post
"Trans Women are Women. Read a science book."

This is pretty vague but let's go with a Biological Basis (again, limiting to post-2018 studies to avoid more spam):

2019 Etiology of Gender Identity
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31027542

2018 Biological Origins of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity: Impact on Health
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605047/

2018 Evidence needed to understand gender identity: Commentary on Turban & Ehrensaft (2018)
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30450644/

2018 Neurobiology of Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29211317/

2018 Man, Woman, "Other": Factors Associated with Nonbinary Gender Identification
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30255409/

2018 The Biological Contributions to Gender Identity and Gender Diversity: Bringing Data to the Table
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29460079/

I'm not sure what other areas of this you might be interested in so I'll refrain from posting any more. If you want stuff from different scientific disciplines, or dating further back just let me know and I'll happily share.

@Hibari

Hi! First time poster, a friend linked me the thread knowing that I am a big science nerd. Anyway, I have a bunch of stuff for you. I'm going to avoid sharing opinion pieces or anything outside of peer-reviewed studies. Also: apologies in advance for the amount of links I'm about to drop.

I'm not entirely sure what it is you want but, based on how the discussion has gone in the thread so far.
The following focus specifically on DSD and Intersex conditions. This is what I have dating back to 2018.

2020 Gender identity: A psychosocial primer for providing care to patients with a disorder/difference of sex development and their families [individualized care for patients with intersex (Disorders/differences of sex development): Part 2]
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32819812/

2019 Gender dysphoria and XX congenital adrenal hyperplasia: how frequent is it? Is male-sex rearing a good idea?
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30905417/

2019 Gender Identity Fluctuation in a Genetic Female with Late-Onset, Non-Classical Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30911871/

2019 Psychosexual Aspects, Effects of Prenatal Androgen Exposure, and Gender Change in 46,XY Disorders of Sex Development
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30388241/

2019 Response to Apóstolos et al.'s (2018) "Gender Identity and Sexual Function in 46,XX Patients with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia Raised as Males"
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30659438/

2018 Gender Dysphoria and Gender Change in Disorders of Sex Development/Intersex Conditions: Results From the dsd-LIFE Study
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29606626/

2018 Gender Dysphoria in Klinefelter's Syndrome: Three Cases
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28696129/

2018 Gender Identity and Sexual Function in 46,XX Patients with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia Raised as Males
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30291599/

2018 Gender identity in patients with 5-alpha reductase deficiency raised as females
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30297225/

2018 Management of pediatric patients with DSD and ambiguous genitalia: Balancing the child's moral claims to self-determination with parental values and preferences
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29903608/

I can drop another 50 of these dating back to 2004 if you're desperate to see how the focus shifts about and how the way this is studied evolves...but in the interest of saving you a little reading: This is a rather complex area that keeps getting more complicated the more we learn.
Long story short: "this is more complicated than we learned in year 7."

Moving away from DSD/Intersex stuff and back to the quote from your original post
"Trans Women are Women. Read a science book."

This is pretty vague but let's go with a Biological Basis (again, limiting to post-2018 studies to avoid more spam):

2019 Etiology of Gender Identity
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31027542

2018 Biological Origins of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity: Impact on Health
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605047/

2018 Evidence needed to understand gender identity: Commentary on Turban & Ehrensaft (2018)
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30450644/

2018 Neurobiology of Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29211317/

2018 Man, Woman, "Other": Factors Associated with Nonbinary Gender Identification
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30255409/

2018 The Biological Contributions to Gender Identity and Gender Diversity: Bringing Data to the Table
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29460079/

I'm not sure what other areas of this you might be interested in so I'll refrain from posting any more. If you want stuff from different scientific disciplines, or dating further back just let me know and I'll happily share.

This will keep me busy for a while. Thank you so much. I will no doubt come back in a bit with many questions.

This paper says it all really:

2018 Biological Origins of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity: Impact on Health pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605047/ .

Leaving aside AGP, trans people are basically those who are same sex attracted but society won't let them be SSA and GNC, they have to be the opposite sex.

2019 Gender dysphoria and XX congenital adrenal hyperplasia: how frequent is it? Is male-sex rearing a good idea pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30905417/ .
What's male sex rearing? Telling a girl she's going to grow a penis and be able to father a child?

None of the children seen at GIDS have ever had any karyotype except the one that goes with their sex. People with DSD can be trans, but it isn't a determining factor.

All the paper titles are referring to gender identity

And that seems to fit with my ( and I am a scientist ) understanding

Transgender is very real. A mental image of oneself . So it can be studied

What is wrong is to make the leap that it means your sex is somehow wrong or that sex doesn't matter or even to assume that everyone experiences gender in the same way.

What Is unclear also is to b what extent it is nurture and to what if any extent it has a pure biological cause

I really recommend reading Galileo's Middle Finger by Alice Dreger for inisght into how activist medics and academics have influenced their fields. I found it a real eye opener.

www.penguin.com/ajax/books/excerpt/9780143108115

People with DSD are not a magic third sex & they have repeatedly asked not to be dragged into this as some kind of gotcha

There are only 2 sexes - those who produce large gametes and those who produce small which is how human beings reproduce. There is no evidence of any other sex

Thinking about it from the other side, I always thought if there are just 2 sexes then why don't the biologists just say this and put the whole thing to bed. This interview with 2 evolutionary biologists explains - It's so f*ing obvious no-one thought it needed saying.
One interviewee recounts a story of her scouting around her colleagues for a citation for there are only 2 sexes. They laughed at her 'cos it's textbook'. But no, it's soooo obvious it's not even stated in textbooks.
These two are now working towards a peer reviewed study to prove the existence of just 2 sexes.

I've just watched all of that, Thomaspenman. Fascinating.

I understand wanting to keep DSDs out of the discussion - and I know how much people with these conditions don't want to be dragged in to the debate, but unfortunately, they regularly are and it is good to be able to read the studies in order to counter those attempts to use them as evidence.

From what I am seeing, those studies linked above show only that they can't ever be used to prove the sex spectrum position.

So they can now be doubly discounted as a) not relevant because they are not 'somewhere in between the binary' and b) not relevant because their existence doesn't prove what TRAs want it to prove in terms of innate gender identity and sexed brains.

Thank you, Flypast, that book looks great.

Transgender is very real. A mental image of oneself . So it can be studied

Except that now that Stonewall et al have expanded the notion of trans to include anyone who identifies as trans, whatever that means to them, it's very difficult to pin down what trans means for research or data collection.

@merrymouse

Transgender is very real. A mental image of oneself . So it can be studied

Except that now that Stonewall et al have expanded the notion of trans to include anyone who identifies as trans, whatever that means to them, it's very difficult to pin down what trans means for research or data collection.

Yes. I see this. It's one thing to study the causes of gender dysphoria, but if that doesn't need to be present to be trans now, you are looking at a group of people who, effectively, have nothing in common except a declaration that they want to be viewed as the opposite sex for a variety of different reasons.