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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following The Science

146 replies

stuckinatrap · 06/03/2021 20:51

Ok. So I've been down the #superstraight rabbit hole on Twitter and I keep coming across the same comments:

Things like:

'Transwomen are women. Read a science book'

And

'You are scientifically inaccurate. There are more than two biological sexes. Educate yourself'

So I'm attempting educating myself.

What is the science they are referencing? Is it just that DSDs exist (because that isn't evidence of more than 2 sexes as far as I am aware - just that things don't go according to plan sometimes) and clownfish?

Or is there a whole world of science of which I'm ignorant? (Which wouldn't be a surprise as I'm more of a humanities kind of a woman).

This is sort of following on from the whole 'Are we the baddies?' thread. If there is real scientific evidence and I'm wrong, I would like to be educated. It might change my mind.

Does anyone have the studies?

OP posts:
334bu · 08/03/2021 10:09

Not quite sure what this proves but here we have some transwomen stating what it is to be a womenConfused

mobile.twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/03/2021 10:13

Well, these individuals do not speak for me or my understanding of what it means to be a woman or what I aspire to be as a woman.

andyoldlabour · 08/03/2021 10:19

Reading that twitter thread, just reinforces my feelings, that they should never be allowed inside women's safe spaces - refuges, toilets, changing rooms, sports etc.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2021 10:24

Not quite sure what this proves but here we have some transwomen stating what it is to be a women

Oh look one of them is Julia Serano, the august researcher Hibari appealed to the authority of about the "debunking" of autogynephilia.

I don't know about you, but that quote certainly doesn't do much to debunk it!

OldCrone · 08/03/2021 11:12

@Hibari

Again: Not trying to defend a position. Information was requested. Information was provided.

Literally: Studies I have come across that are relevant to this subject.

I'm really not interested in discussing the AGP theory here. It's been done to absolute death by people far more qualified than (I assume) any of us here are. I'm aware this is an appeal to authority but, honestly...it's rather dull.
If you actually desperate to see someone debunk it...IDK, go read Serano or Mosler's disseminations of the theory. I'm sure a bunch of youtubers have videos on it too but I honestly wouldn't know which to recommend.

I've just been reading Serano's article, and there are a few things that leap out at me about it.

Firstly, Serano doesn't say that autogynephilia doesn't exist, just that it is erroneous to place all male transgender people into one of Blanchard's two categories (homosexual trans and autogynephiles who are attracted to women). I agree with Serano on this. Two rigid categories is far too simplistic. It's a bit like saying there are two categories of people: trans people who 'identify as' or think they 'are' the opposite sex (or have no sex at all in the case of non-binaries), and everyone else is 'cis' and identifies wholeheartedly with the stereotypes society deems appropriate for their sex. Yes. Far too simplisitic and rigid.

So Serano doesn't say that transgender people who are wholly or partly driven by autogynephilia (or female embodiment fantasies (FEF) as Serano puts it) don't exist, just that not all non-homosexual transsexuals are autogynephiles. And for the ones that are, it may not be the only or main driving factor.

So Serano sets up a few straw men.

First, the theory is ludicrously rigid. Even if you know nothing about transgender people, think for a moment of some other minority group that you do know something about. Got it? Okay, now imagine some guy in a lab coat proclaiming that there are two (and only two!) subtypes of that group. And they are completely distinct from one another, no overlap whatsoever.

If this is what the theory says, I agree. It's far too rigid. But agreeing about the 'two types' theory being too rigid doesn't say anything about the existence or non-existence of AGP.

This brings us to a second important reason why many trans women object to the theory: Rather than thoughtfully listening to what we had to say, and reevaluating or rejecting the theory accordingly (as scientists are supposed to do when confronted with contradictory evidence), proponents of autogynephilia instead insisted that any trans woman who does not fit neatly into Blanchard’s model must be lying, misreporting, or in denial of their experiences.

Has anyone said that? I don't know. But again it's about the rigid 'two categories', not about the existence or otherwise of AGP.

If you would like to see a more recent example of this tactic, look no further than this interview with Bailey where he essentially diagnoses Caitlyn Jenner as an “autogynephile” from afar, despite having no idea whether she’s ever experienced FEFs

Jenner has talked about trying on Jenner's daughter's clothes.
www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/caitlyn-jenner-at-chicago-house-event/62376/

And one thing I find particularly irritating in Serano's writing is that every time Serano wants to talk about scientists it's 'some guy in a lab coat'. Not all scientists wear lab coats, and not all scientists are men.

NecessaryScene1 · 08/03/2021 11:27

Okay, now imagine some guy in a lab coat proclaiming that there are two (and only two!) subtypes of that group. And they are completely distinct from one another, no overlap whatsoever.

That would be a straw man in a lab coat then. No way would Blanchard (or anyone?) say that.

Here's an actual article by him.

Key quote:

One problem with the current mainstream narrative regarding gender dysphoria is that it makes no distinctions among apparently very different kinds of persons. [examples: Caitlyn Jenner and Jazz Jennings]

... failure to make scientifically valid and fundamental distinctions among different kinds of gender dysphoric persons can only prevent progress toward finding the best approach to helping each. Measles, influenza, and strep throat are all associated with fever. But if we had merely lumped them together as “fever,” we would not have effective treatments for them.

To extend the metaphor - he's not saying you couldn't have both measles and influenza...

Classification, and generalisations, are key to knowledge. Postmodern attempts to deny patterns and hence classification are anti-knowledge. Just saying "it's a big ball of wibbly-wobbley timey-wimey stuff" is not helpful. It's caveman level.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/03/2021 11:37

Even if he did say there were only two types it would not invalidate the theory per se, it would mean that it could be the basis for development and further understanding.

No one says Newton was wrong because he didn't recognise gravitational waves.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2021 11:38

That's a really good point.

OldCrone · 08/03/2021 11:57

[quote 334bu]Not quite sure what this proves but here we have some transwomen stating what it is to be a womenConfused

mobile.twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569[/quote]
In this article Serano says:
A third main objection to the theory from trans women’s perspectives is that it needlessly sexualizes us. ... Remember my earlier example of a guy in a lab coat proclaiming that all members of some minority group fall into two discrete subtypes? Well, imagine that scenario again, but then he follows it up with the zinger: and both types are sexually motivated in virtually everything they do!

In the screenshot:
“forced feminization ... is about turning the humiliation you feel into pleasure, transforming the loss of male privilege into the best fuck ever.”

But of course Serano isn't sexually motivated at all.

Following The Science
BabySharkdodoo · 08/03/2021 12:07

Serrano sounds a bit like Andrea Long Chu, I was advised to read some her work to "educate myself" and whilst in her new York post article she explains the loss about never being able to reach the destination she was hoping for... Her book "females" with it's phrase: “barest essentials” of “femaleness” as “an open mouth, an expectant *, blank, blank eyes” ...

Lost me a bit from believing that she has a deep biological feeling of being a woman...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2021 12:12

If you look at the Twitter link 334bu posted, coincidentally Long Chu is also on it!

BabySharkdodoo · 08/03/2021 12:13

Some of the science, for example looking at brain scans, could be interpreted differently depending on whether you believe that the difference is a result of "masculinity" or "femininity" or the result of "having the essence of being a male or female" on a biological level.

I remember reading about how London taxi drivers have larger hippocampi (the area of the brain which stores information on spacial memory).. but showing that taxi drivers have on average larger hippocampi than non-taxi drivers doesn't mean that if you have a non-taxi driver with a large hippocampus, they are actually a taxi driver trapped in eg. A fishmongers body.

BabySharkdodoo · 08/03/2021 12:15

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If you look at the Twitter link 334bu posted, coincidentally Long Chu is also on it!
Shock crikey, those are some interesting statements.
YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/03/2021 12:20

I remember reading about how London taxi drivers have larger hippocampi (the area of the brain which stores information on spacial memory)

Yes, brains are 'plastic' and partly the product of environmental factors (put crudely).

NecessaryScene1 · 08/03/2021 12:26

a non-taxi driver with a large hippocampus, they are actually a taxi driver trapped in eg. A fishmongers body.

Amen.

But conversely it's not good to counter that daft argument with "taxi drivers don't have larger hippocampi". Which is something I think feminists can fall prey to.

Men and women do in aggregate have different behaviour and personalities. This is common knowledge and shows up in all sorts of statistics. Not least crime.

To try to counter TRAs with "actually male and female brains are exactly the same" is not a winning strategy. You can't beat one falsehood with a more palatable falsehood.

As you say, the better argument is to say, sure there may be differences on average, but (a) being an outlier for your sex in any parameter (height, personality, sexuality, brain structure...) doesn't make you the opposite sex - there's plenty of overlap - and (b) there's no evidence the people claiming to have "feminine" personalities do - on the contrary.

(It's interesting the way the TRAs do use the range arguments themselves - they'll insist that "men don't have a sports advantage because male and female performance overlaps". That's the mirror image of the overly-strong "no such thing as lady brain" argument - "no such thing as lady body".)

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/03/2021 12:29

Men and women do in aggregate have different behaviour and personalities. This is common knowledge and shows up in all sorts of statistics. Not least crime

But how do we know this is biological and if it is how do we know it is 'essential'? It could be social and environmental.

334bu · 08/03/2021 12:35

It could be social and environmental.

I wonder how 99.9% of all sexual offenders are male can be explained solely by social and environmental issues.

BabySharkdodoo · 08/03/2021 12:37

(It's interesting the way the TRAs do use the range arguments themselves - they'll insist that "men don't have a sports advantage because male and female performance overlaps". That's the mirror image of the overly-strong "no such thing as lady brain" argument - "no such thing as lady body".)

That is a very good point.

I also -as an aside- think that people with intersex conditions are a bit of red herring regarding the question of whether someone has a female essence when they are biologically male, as regardless of the fact that some people have conditions which complicate the SRY gene, Wolffian duct development etc; if someone does not have these conditions then their biology is not ambiguous. Eg. The flow chart would go: can you produce sperm and do you have a penis? If yes-> you are not a female.

Albinism complicates the concept of race, Black people with albinism have spoken about this. But isn't used when talking about Rachel Dolezal, as it's something different.

NecessaryScene1 · 08/03/2021 12:40

It could be social and environmental.

I'm sure it is, in part. But I can't believe for a second it is either 100% "social" or 100% "essential".

We're animals. Would we be the only animal without some sort of innate sex-based behaviour?

Sure, we have a consciousness and free will on top - and that has to play a role too - but the underlying animal is still there.

Do you really believe we could bring up men better to get their sexual offending rate all the way down to current female levels? I don't. (Assuming no drugs or castration...)

Anthropologists (and biologists) do studies into this stuff - certain behaviours are consistent among human cultures. They're more likely "essential", but could just be logical - men do heavy stuff.

Other things are not, but still show gendered patterns - division of activities between sexes, but which sex does which varies, suggesting little "essence".

Heather Heying was talking about some of this in a recent interview with Meghan Murphy.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/03/2021 12:49

I wonder how 99.9% of all sexual offenders are male can be explained solely by social and environmental issues

Not issues. Conditions, the way they are raised, laws, a range of different things. Effects on brain development, ideas, personality.

It's a big issue and cannot be reduced.

Do you really believe we could bring up men better to get their sexual offending rate all the way down to current female levels? I don't

Is that the issue though? Could we lower them significantly?

Why are some men violent and others not?

Why are some cultures more violent than others?

What environmental and social conditions encourage or deter male violence?

And this isn't about 'belief' - that's not science.

And Heather Heying is one popularist voice.

alkanet · 08/03/2021 13:14

The Twitter posts with Long Chu etc. have given me a long cold shudder. When you realise that these sorts of people may be in education or getting onto all women shortlists in politics; what will they be advocating for? How will they fight for women's rights? Other than the right to shut up and bend over?

midgedude · 08/03/2021 13:23

How far one could go in reducing sexual assault rates may be unknown, but given the huge variability by country/culture today we could clearly gain a lot even if we just hit current best practices

NecessaryScene1 · 08/03/2021 13:30

@midgedude

How far one could go in reducing sexual assault rates may be unknown, but given the huge variability by country/culture today we could clearly gain a lot even if we just hit current best practices
I absolutely agree we should do everything we can to get rates down, and find out what works, and get it spread. There's plenty of scope for social and environmental factors to make a lot of difference, no matter what the "innate" component is.

Do you have any comparative stats though? I would have guessed the UK to be far from the worst in the table, but maybe not the best. Who does have best practice?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/03/2021 13:36

Willing to bet it will be one or more of the Nordic countries.

midgedude · 08/03/2021 13:54

It was awhile back when I looked, complicated by reporting rates and definitions that varied worldwide ( eg rape in marriage )

Nordic's not that great , think Germany looked particularly good

If I get time later I will see what I can dig out

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