Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

@SpringCrocus

Cis and Trans are terms used in Chemistry, denoting mirror image molecules. Not anything to do with human mammalian biology.

Exactly this, I'm so glad to have found a fellow geek. It especially makes my teeth itch because they have got the usage of the words the wrong way round to how I understand there usage in aromatic isomers.

For people who didn't do a-level chemistry;

Cl H Cl Cl
\ / \ /
C = C C = C
/ \ /

H Cl H H

These are both atomic structures of dichloroethene, the one on the left is trans (makes the same shape as the trans pennine express) and the one on the right is cis. They are both chemically the same, but optically different

Then contrast that with a woman and a TW, they are chemically different (hormones and chromosomes), but TW endeavor to look 'optically' the same.

If they had any logic, or went trying to make things intentionally confusing (both doubtful) then what we call TW and men should logically be cis/trans opersits as they have the same cell chemistry but different presentation (optical appearance).

Dam my spacing messed up, I'll try again

Cl H
\ / trans
C=C
/

H Cl

Cl Cl
\ /
C=C cis
/

H H

@bethanybiskits

I think that “straight” is useful as it helps people to express their sexuality. If we accept that all individuals have a sexuality (or are asexual) then straight is simply a sub-category or class of sexuality.

Humans are one of two sexes with a tiny minority of individuals who are either male or female but who are a disorder of sexual differentiation.

Cis is not a subcategory of either sex. “Trans” refers to those who believe in the concept of gender identity and believe that their own gender identity does not match their sex. That’s fine. It’s fine for individuals who believe in the concept of gender identity and believe that their own gender identity matches their sex to accept being called “cis” but everyone who is not “trans” is “cis” as in order to be called “cis” surely one must agree with the concept of gender identity.

Eg I’m an adult human female. I’ve got long hair and today I wore a dress. How do you know if I’m a) Cis woman who believes in gender identity and feels that her gender identity matches my sex b) a trans man who does not want to change their presentation, c) non-binary/other gender or d) a woman who does not believe in the concept of gender identity and therefore would not feel comfortable using the term “cis”?

The story I read was that some people thought it was amusing that 'trans' sounded as though it was a nod to 'transgender', and to make the gag (such as it was) work, non-transgender people had to be tagged as 'cis'. Cis isn't the prefix of anything to do with women, as far as I know; it's only 'trans-genderism' that gets a name-check in the trans/cis dichotomy? There's a surprise.

Chemistry pedant... for those of you who didn't do a couple of degrees in chemistry

Cis and trans are configurational isomers, not mirror images (that's chirality, 'handedness'). And they're chemically (not merely optically) different - they can have different boiling points and different properties. An obvious everyday case is in saturated fats, one form is now known to be worse for you than the other. They're simply different and not generally interconvertible. All the same bits, but in different places, so no analogy with biology at all really.

Sorry, I got a bit carried away and over technical there, it bothers me in the same way people get infuriated by misusing of apostrophes.

(And I think 'aromatic' was a typo?)

I now down to your chemistry knowledge, I was considering bringing peppermint/ spearmint into it, and considering if we should be smelling people, and that's about were my (half remembered) knowledge ended.

Bow down to your chemistry knowledge

@Defaultname

The story I read was that some people thought it was amusing that 'trans' sounded as though it was a nod to 'transgender', and to make the gag (such as it was) work, non-transgender people had to be tagged as 'cis'. Cis isn't the prefix of anything to do with women, as far as I know; it's only 'trans-genderism' that gets a name-check in the trans/cis dichotomy? There's a surprise.

It's a back-construction. 'Trans' is like the other meaning - transport, transplant, and most obviously transition. Change. There is no Cisport,cisplant or Cisition - the concepts would be meaningless. And equally there's no need for 'Ciswomen'

You got the diagrams right, BubbleGum, they're a bugger to do in text so

Constraining yourself into gender conforming boxes is taking feminism back half a century.

Evening, everyone.

Thanks for the discussion and for keeping things largely civil here tonight. And welcome to any new members - we hope you've been able to join in, too. We've been moderating a bit on the thread and we're keen to keep things on track as it's been a really interesting discussion.

To that end, we're going to temporarily close it overnight - and so we can all get a good night's kip without fear of missing out. It will be back in the morning though, don't worry.

Sleep well, all.

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

D'you know what? Like most people with real lives to lead, I don't care what your pronouns are.

What I do care about is you trying to dictate what I write. No. Never.

It is strange though, I rarely use pronouns on MN or any social media. It is simply not the way I write emails either. I do find this fuss over pronouns to be irrelevant in my life at all really.

If you consider yourself a male and people can see you're a male, they'd automatically address you as he. And same if you consider yourself a female and present as a female

Good point. Pronouns are something other people give you, not something you choose yourself. They are also based on sex which is easily identified. They are also not something you would typically use when the subject of the pronouns is present, so it seems a little odd to try and control speech you are unlikely to hear.

This may sound facetious, @nightinghawk, but I mean it sincerely and with goodwill, and I don't need an answer.

Do you think there might be something liberating about accepting that you are a certain sex, and that the rest is personality and preferences?

Just... Ploughing on with your day and your life, without seeking to define proportions of inner femininity and masculinity?

I expect you may say no, as this way of analysing and understanding yourself seems to be providing you with some comfort at this current stage in your life, but I will just leave the thought there.

I'd love to know why you picked xe/xem. Rather than just they/them.

Does it have a tangibly different meaning that is widely understood or do you just find it more attractive (like selecting a pretty new name)?

I like fae/faer/faerself. It's like fairie.

Could I select this if I decide I am not gender non conforming but really man, woman and other, or does it mean something specific?

Did you factor into your decision that it would be significantly more of a cognitive burden on the people around you?

How do you feel about the neo pronouns Gen X are coming up with . Does it undermine the more orthodox pronouns (being able to randomly pick a word)? SomNy questions.Thanks

So yes, as cis is clearly a slur to so many WOMEN, I think it should be banned. One wonders why, when you know it is so deeply offensive to most women, that you would continue to use it. Why? What is your agenda in using such a deeply offensive term, if it isn't to antagonise women? Why do it? If I used the term 'tranny', I would rightly be rounded on. I wouldn't use a term that would upset transpeople. So why do transpeople think it's acceptable to use a slur against women when we've clearly said it's offensive and upsetting to us? Can you not have a conversation without using that term? If you are genuine about dialogue, you would be able to engage in good faith and good spirit and not use to terms that otherise and categorise women (and men also when it's used in front of the word men).

I don't see why this isn't a safe space for transpeople if they come on here in good faith and don't have the expectation that they can call us any offensive terms they want, and we can't do the same. Just as I wouldn't go on a site that discusses BAME issues and use the 'n' word and expect to get away with it, I expect transpeople on here to come in good faith and not use terms that are, for obvious reasons, clearly deeply offensive to women. You won't do well here if you want it 100% your way, which from experience, most transpeople coming on here do expect. It's 50-50. I'll use whatever pronouns you like, if you don't use that offensive 'cis' slur. I think that's fair enough. I truly do.

The sole purpose of pronouns is to make communication a bit easier and more fluid, rather than repeating a noun (proper or otherwise) . Neopronouns frustrate that purpose - they function more as a set of alternative proper nouns. 'They' as a singular has been in common parlance for centuries, mostly for people of unknown sex; I can get why people who wish not to be identified by sex use that. What further point is there to neopronouns?

Speaking generally now. I don't really get using special pronouns, because it relies on others both wanting and being able to remember to talk about you using special words. It's impossible to control how others think and talk about yourself. Most adults live hectic and stressful lives, remembering names can be hard enough. I actually find it rude when people tell others to use non-standard sex based pronouns.

*instead of the usual sex based pronouns.

I find cis incredibly offensive. Stop it.

What trans rights do you think are under attack?

Be who you want to be, I really don't care.

Women have hard won rights, and don't want them erased or amendef to centre people who grew up with male privelege. Plenty of evidence in the feminism boards, suggest that you educate yourself.

Best of luck.

Disability and biological sex are not analogous.

Disability can take many forms, can fluctuate, and is often context-specific and therefore, to an extent, subjective. Not all individuals with the same impairment consider themselves disabled, or they may consider themselves disabled in some contexts but not others (as I do with my own disability).

Biological sex is none of those things. It is binary (yes, even for people with DSDs), irrevocably determined at the moment of conception in all mammals, and is consistent at all times for any given individual. It can be objectively scientifically determined. It remains objectively true, whether or not the individual concerned accepts it.