MOJ Prison Policy JR TODAY

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Just seen on Twitter.

Will post links

The duties on a public function are a bit broader. There is an EA provision which is more of a catch all
)A person must not, in the exercise of a public function that is not the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public, do anything that constitutes discrimination, harassment or victimisation.

I wonder if it is this. Or the broad public sector equality duty in s149.

However the existence of private sector provision in the prison service may be an issue.

prisons are single sex exempt because they are a service, not a public function. Does this mean that they have to write what the difference is legally and if the judges do not agree with them, does this mean there are so many other 'public functions' where they will have to rip down the walls and start again. Anyone any clearer on this??

A rapist can apply for and be granted a GRC whilst in prison

But they must spend two years in the female estate BEFORE they can be approved for genital surgery (which they don't have to have if they change their mind)

Who the hell thought that was a good idea?

if prisons are exempt because they are a service which I think is nonsense btw, then I want to see how they define the difference between a "service" and a "public function"

The same person who wrote the bloody act

SH closing arguments
There is nothing in the policy that misstates the law or encourages or requires unlawful acts. Policy is capable of lawful implementation in individual cases. (Case by case application)
Series of policy choices - not purporting to set out the law. No requirement that is does this

@TheABC

Watching the comments from this trial feels like the last three years of FWR board, on speed.

You mean stating the bleeding obvious to normal people who understand reality and haven't been silenced into submission by Stonewall and that criminals are going to use the weaknesses of the law and exploit them rather than merely being nice?

And that women being nice without questioning things tends to result in women getting harmed somewhere along the line.

Aka basic level safeguarding.

Claimant’s counsel closing
KM says policy should direct to have regard to the impact on biological women in the women's estate because they are likely to have a history of sexual abuse and trauma /50

KM: A transwomen with a GRC will always be initially allocated to a women's prison - the need for any risk mitigation is decided by a governor - not a complex case board. This procedure is not robust /51

KM: Its inconceivable that the prison service doesn't know how many GRC holders are in prison when they say all of them have acquired their GRCs while IN PRISON. /52

But surely, the fact that GRC does not imply any 'risk mitigation' has happened, means that it should be harder to justify a differential in treatment between GRC and non-GRC.

The policy CANNOT imply GRC = safer because that is clearly not necessarily true.

So IF the policy has to take women's safety into account (fingers crossed it does, not taking anything for granted), mad to differentiate between the two.

When are we expecting a judgment/ruling?

KM: Its inconceivable that the prison service doesn't know how many GRC holders are in prison when they say all of them have acquired their GRCs while IN PRISON. /52

This is completely bonkers because someone in the prison system must have facilitated it in some way.

It's equally insane that it's something you can do from prison.

@GemmeFatale

When are we expecting a judgment/ruling?

I’d like to know this too. Not that I want it rushed, just curious. Anyone know?

Have they not heard of POGD?

E Wing: not an answer to initial allocation, because this does not occur at reception.
KM: finishes here. Other matters will address in an agreeed note.

Case ended

Wait. If you can’t ask if someone has a GRC, and you can’t document it, how do they know all prisoners with GRC acquired them while in prison?

A petition to move X to a female prison was signed by 150,000 people and was backed by local MP Ben Howlett and Lib Dem leader Tim Farron. X was subsequently moved to HMP Eastwood Park, a women’s closed prison in Gloucestershire

don't know if it was this one but I remember a petition by privileged female students with zero regard for the females being housed with a violent prisoner - it was a petition by privileged people demanding that a violent prisoner be moved in with females. It would have no effect on these privileged people except feeling good about being kind.. . . and thinking how cruel it was not to even think about, never mind feel empathy for the most vulnerable females in our country, most of whom are in prison as a result of abuse or poverty in their life experience. So callous.

Well that was as clear as mud..... so what is likely to be said to the complainant who would quite like to not be sexually assaulted again please?

@FindTheTruth

A petition to move X to a female prison was signed by 150,000 people and was backed by local MP Ben Howlett and Lib Dem leader Tim Farron. X was subsequently moved to HMP Eastwood Park, a women’s closed prison in Gloucestershire

don't know if it was this one but I remember a petition by privileged female students with zero regard for the females being housed with a violent prisoner - it was a petition by privileged people demanding that a violent prisoner be moved in with females. It would have no effect on these privileged people except feeling good about being kind.. . . and thinking how cruel it was not to even think about, never mind feel empathy for the most vulnerable females in our country, most of whom are in prison as a result of abuse or poverty in their life experience. So callous.

It's the natural outcome of 'TWAW' sadly. 'No woman should be housed in the men's estate and TWAW. No debate.'

It really is that black and white.

'They say all of them have acquired their GRCs while in prison'

That is a little odd, statistically speaking, surely?

Of the set 'males who commit crimes' there is a subset 'males who have a GRC who commit crimes or have committed crimes'. But the subset 'males who have a GRC who commit crimes or have committed crimes' should contain 'males who get a GRC and then commit a crime' and 'males who commit crime and then get a GRC'.

If no males who commit crimes got a GRC first (given GRCs have been around for some time) then EITHER:

Males who get a GRC magically become good and never commit further crimes (clearly untrue becuase of the sexual assaults we are discussing here)

OR

Males in prison get GRCs at massively disproportionate rates (I wonder why)?

OR
Males who get a GRC do sometimes commit crimes, but the prison service doesn't know about this/says it hasn't happened

I'm beginning to wonder if it's not so much that the prison service is trying to defend the indefensible but more that they're making a bad case on purpose.

But that seems a remarkably spineless approach that would put women at risk to make a point.

@Whydoyouthinkthatthen

'They say all of them have acquired their GRCs while in prison'

That is a little odd, statistically speaking, surely?

Of the set 'males who commit crimes' there is a subset 'males who have a GRC who commit crimes or have committed crimes'. But the subset 'males who have a GRC who commit crimes or have committed crimes' should contain 'males who get a GRC and then commit a crime' and 'males who commit crime and then get a GRC'.

If no males who commit crimes got a GRC first (given GRCs have been around for some time) then EITHER:

Males who get a GRC magically become good and never commit further crimes (clearly untrue becuase of the sexual assaults we are discussing here)

OR

Males in prison get GRCs at massively disproportionate rates (I wonder why)?

OR
Males who get a GRC do sometimes commit crimes, but the prison service doesn't know about this/says it hasn't happened

I think the point is that unless they get the GRC while in prison, the Gov does not know whether or not they have a GRC and just go with what's on the birth certificate (which may or may not have been changed by a GRC, no one knows and they're not allowed to ask or keep records). So if the Gov is talking about people they know to have a GRC it can only be people who got one while in prison.

Surely all the energy that has been put into demanding that TW prisoners are housed in the female estate could now be put into finding an alternative safe and appropriate solution for TW. Housing them with women, at what is now proving to be inevitable risk to female prisoners, obviously isn't the right solution. So where is all the effort to find that safe and appropriate solution?

It's the natural outcome of 'TWAW' sadly. 'No woman should be housed in the men's estate and TWAW. No debate.' It really is that black and white.

Stuckinatrap - and why a case by case basis won't work. has to be blanket policy. Datun talked about the 'smirk' and that's the cruel and unusual punishment right there. here's hoping for the right policy after the judgement

FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen
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Replying to
@fairplaywomen
Wants a witness statement on statistics:
how many trans prisoners were in prison as a whole
how many of those had a GRC
how many trans prisoners are on E wing
how many in the general population of women prison /55
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FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen
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how many of those have a GRC
how many trans with GRC are in mens prison
how many biological women are in the men prison estate /56
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FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen
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What are the 'exceptional reasons' why a biological woman would be moved to the men's estate. /57
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FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen
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* these are questions we've been wanting answers to for years - it very good that this has been ordered my the court** /58
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FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen
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Court rises

/end

FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen

Judges return /54

Wants a witness statement on statistics:
how many trans prisoners were in prison as a whole
how many of those had a GRC
how many trans prisoners are on E wing
how many in the general population of women prison /55

how many of those have a GRC
how many trans with GRC are in mens prison
how many biological women are in the men prison estate /56

What are the 'exceptional reasons' why a biological woman would be moved to the men's estate. /57

* these are questions we've been wanting answers to for years - it very good that this has been ordered my the court** /58

Thank you Chaz and all