MOJ Prison Policy JR TODAY

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Just seen on Twitter.

Will post links

@RedDogsBeg

Defence asserts there's no easy answer of where to high risk transwomen should be held. Striking that balance will not please everyone and there have been claims from both sides. /40

There is a very easy answer and it is NOT in the female prison estate, or a wing attached to a female prison.

Yes, start by taking the female estate out of the equation and work it out from there.

@PurpleHoodie

A simple blood test on admission to determine whether female or male?

Devil's advocate as there would be legal challenges:

What happens if someone refuses consent?

Does it breech human rights to enforce compulsory blood tests?

Hint: I strongly believe its not possible to do this.

To give an example of something similar: If someone is caught driving under the influence of drugs then they cannot enforce a blood test - they can only criminalise a refusal. Which might be used as part of a discrimination case if this was being used to determine sex and undisclosed GRCs.

I think this one is confined to problems over rights...

If a transgender person can’t be asked about their birth sex or previous incarnation, how can a complete listing of any previous crimes be provided to appropriately try or sentence a case?

If a person born XY commits a + b + c crimes, then legally becomes “F” on their birth certificate, and again commits a + b + c crimes - does the justice system know it is not the first time they have offended?

Italy has had a prison specifically for trans prisoners since 2010. Third spaces are the only solution that are fair for everyone.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8455191.stm

Scuse me if this is a stupid question, but the GRA gives some exemptions from the ban on asking for and documenting a GRC, including for the prevention and detection of crime. Surely this situation would fall under that exemption?

@2021Vision

I must be missing something here regarding them knowing how many TW they have. I thought someone who transitions need to take drugs for life. Surely prisoners don't have access to their own supply in their cells so these drugs must be ordered administered somehow? (who pays for this!?) They will then know. Sorry if I am being thick here.

Transition can literally mean name and pronoun change and maybe some make up. As I recall you only have to prove you are on a journey to transition to get a GRC. Nobody ever goes back to check you completed the process medically.

@2021Vision

I must be missing something here regarding them knowing how many TW they have. I thought someone who transitions need to take drugs for life. Surely prisoners don't have access to their own supply in their cells so these drugs must be ordered administered somehow? (who pays for this!?) They will then know. Sorry if I am being thick here.

You are assuming that any sort of medical transition is required in order to get a GRC. This is not the case. Transition can be social only so males who have had no surgery and no hormone treatment can get a GRC and, as I understand this thread, will then by default be placed in the women's estate.

Cross post with Ova

@Whatisthisfuckery

I’m sure if a special prison specifically for tw prisoners was established the demand would suddenly diminish.

I think they know this which is why they don't want to chuck money at it. Enough people who work with offenders have pretty much told them so.

Defence is saying putting them in E wing IS an application of the single sex exceptions (treating transwomen with a GRC differently to females). They only move to male estate in exceptional circumstances. /44

@Whatisthisfuckery

I’m sure if a special prison specifically for tw prisoners was established the demand would suddenly diminish.

You mean a women's prison for women with special needs seeing as 'transwomen are women' except when all those women have the same 'special needs'? Then they are definitely super special women.

There is this weird adversion to the idea of transwomen being housed together for health and well-being of all inmates... Why?

Women who have certain special health needs or safety issues are already housed separately for certain issues. Mother and baby units spring to mind...

According to case law, a sex offender can get a GRC whilst being held in a men's prison, but in order to be approved for surgery they then have to spend two years in the female estate (or in the community).

Get rid of this ridiculous requirement for starters. Why can't they be approved for surgery whilst being housed in the male estate? Most don't even go through with it.

Prisoner x (my redaction jic), a violent who identifies as a trans woman, was convicted of assault at Bristol Magistrates’ Court in 2015. As X had eight previous convictions including for battery, a custodial sentence (of 12 weeks) was inevitable.

X, had initially claimed self-defence but pleaded guilty on the first day of the trial after viciously headbutting a bar’s manager when he refused to serve the defendant any more alcohol. The bar manager needed dental surgery costing £1,500 as a result of the attack.

Having not applied for a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) “out of laziness“, X was sent to HMP Bristol, a men’s category B prison. Commenting to the Telegraph, Cheryl Morgan, a trans member of LGBT Bristol and Diversity Trust, said: “Can you imagine putting a woman who looks like [X] in a male prison?” perhaps unintentionally creating a hierarchy of risk for transgender people who do and don’t pass as the stereotypes associated with their chosen gender.

Incidentally, Cheryl Morgan is on the board for the NHS SouthWest trans policy in hospitals that places trans requirements above the rights of all women and has a personal blog that describes Cheryl’s role and delight at the demonstrations against the WPUK meeting in Bristol.

An appeal against the sentence, which was heard before Bristol Crown Court in October 2015 was dismissed after the panel ruled x had a “worrying criminal record.”

A petition to move X to a female prison was signed by 150,000 people and was backed by local MP Ben Howlett and Lib Dem leader Tim Farron. X was subsequently moved to HMP Eastwood Park, a women’s closed prison in Gloucestershire.

X is suing the MoJ for damages, alleging that her status as a woman was ignored when she was imprisoned, that she suffered sexual assault during her incarceration and that she was placed in an atmosphere that was “intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating and offensive”.

It is not clear whether this person received their damages but the certainly got access to justice and support from Tim Farron mp.

Maybe this action and the threat of similar influenced the MoJ policy as they seemed quite clear on the rights and wrongs of it in this case.

I wonder if the lady in the JR today will be able to sue the MoJ for damages? I certainly hope so.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government

Nice try by defence counsel but female prisoners can also be segregated from other female prisoners for safety reasons so I don’t think partial segregation within the female estate is a single sex exemption.

So the special wing is them using the SSE, but I thought they didn’t think using the SSE was applicable to the prison service that isn’t a service?

"Defence says there's no requirement to use the single sex exceptions. "

This is the problem isn't it. There really should be some circumstances where the exceptions have to be used.

Sex offenders should be barred from gaining a GRC and have it rescinded if convicted at a later date. Actually the whole sorry mess should be repealed but the former would at least be a start.

Having a GRC is a 'weighty matter' that should be taken into consideration when balancing rights of all groups.

FOFW commentary
More evidence that having a GRC give people extra rights to spaces reserved to those born the opposite sex /45

I may be wrong but I thought I read somewhere Tara Hudson lost that case.

I've been looking online but can't find anything about the outcome, but apparently the MoJ legal team said in the documents that they "did not consider Hudson to be a woman", "is as a matter of biological fact a man" and "the term transwoman had no legal significance"

Interesting. Hudson was also claiming mistreatment as discrimination under the EA. So the MoJ were aware it applied then.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government

I've looked re Tara Hudson suing the MOJ and all I can find is that the case was scheduled to be heard in April 2018 and nothing further.

Same here RedDogsBeg. Maybe they apologised, changed the policy and Tara quietly dropped the case on lawyers' advice as they thought it didn't have much chance of success? Just my speculation.

@stuckinatrap

Is there another example of a legal identity document that is to be kept secret at all costs, can't be asked for and can't even be known about without an individual disclosing it?

It just seems completely insane to get this Secret Fucking Squirrel certificate so that you can change your birth certificate to a legal fiction and no one can ever know.

Then to base policy on the production of this Top Secret Certificate which an individual can't be asked about nor be compelled to admit exists is too ludicrous to be believed.

I take my hats off to judges at times like these. They must have will of steel not to get visibly angered or incredulous.

Spot on!

Detailed discussion on exemptions under EA and if E Wing covers that. Raises case of TW not able to have surgery unless they live as a woman (possibly Jones case).

FOFW commentary
More evidence that having a GRC give people extra rights to spaces reserved to those born the opposite sex /45

and yet we keep being told that Trans Rights have no impact on Women's Rights, take nothing away from Women, they still need more rights, etc., etc.

Article 8 rights of TW are engaged not minimally & fairly heavy justification will have to be shown to move a TW with a GRC to male estate. Existence & use of E Wing, the burden of justification to move to male estate = even higher.