MOJ Prison Policy JR TODAY

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Just seen on Twitter.

Will post links

What do you call a judge with no thumbs? Justice Fingers

He questions the reluctance to provide the data

Justice Swift rather cross that the full data set was not provided when he asked for it overnight.

Indeed.

Judges are really not happy with the lack of data.

A simple blood test on admission to determine whether female or male?

LJH: I appreciate challenge is legality of policy only, but struggle to see how this policy for TW with a GRC if you have no idea who these TW with a GRC are. It's a mess.

It's a mess. Tell me about it...

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Justice Swift is "disturbed" by the fact there's no clear answer on how many transwomen in GRC there are in womens prison. Judge needs to assess the scale of the risk. He questions the reluctance to provide the data /32

Justice Swift rather cross that the full data set was not provided when he asked for it overnight. /33

The trouble is the prison service are not allowed to collect this data! The GRA makes it illegal except in very few specific circumstances.

"Because in effect only the safe ones go into the women's prison and if they are dangerous they are supervised"

Huh? GRC = safe? How? Why?

'If they are dangerous' = 'as we know we have increased the risk to women' ARRRGH.

SH challenging the stats on sex offenders with GRC suggesting it is too small a sample to conclude generally that TW pose an increased risk.

oh government, where hast thou been. Methinks thou hast been on f%cking holiday

Catch 22 always springs to mind when getting down into the facts of the GRA

Judge sounds pissed off...

LJH: This suggests that there are 4 TW with no GRC in female estate and 1 with a GRC in female estate. But this is at odds with other info. I am disturbed that it is so difficult to answer this. Why is all this not in the information?
What is the scale of the issue?

LJH: I do not understand the unwillingless to provide the information?
SH: we know about thhe TW with GRCs who have had CCBs who are in female estate. The number of TW with GRCs is less than 5000 in entire population. By analogy must apply here.
LJH: Try again!

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

SH challenging the stats on sex offenders with GRC suggesting it is too small a sample to conclude generally that TW pose an increased risk.

Umm how about just look at the stats of male sex offenders because what you call yourself has zero bearing on anything.

LJH: Try again

@PurpleHoodie

A simple blood test on admission to determine whether female or male?

I thought convicted prisoners would generally be on the DNA database?

What are "CCB'S" sorry if i'm being dense.

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark

Is there a given reason why sex can't be determined by looking at someone or during the body search? There are senior (retired) prison officials on record saying that most trans women prisoners do not 'pass' and many make no effort to adopt a feminine appearance. Why can't prison staff just point out the blindingly obvious? There may be a few trans men with an adam's apple due to early hormone treatment, but otherwise adam's apple= male. And any male describing themselves as a woman/female is trans. Why is this not allowed?

There is, of course, also the problem they have had in Ireland where female prison officers don't want to be searching male bodied prisoners.

If you have to wait for the search to discover a nice surprise in a prisoner's frilly knickers, you can't head that off before it's forced on women who aren't comfortable.

In fairness to her I should say that SH is a very well respected barrister. However, no amount of advocacy skill can fully offset gaping holes in your case. The MOJ haven’t got good data.

Errol

I thought convicted prisoners would generally be on the DNA database?

You know; I've never really thought about that.

For example: why would a woman convicted and sent to prison for not paying the TV licence need to provide dna?

More questions...

@Sophoclesthefox

Do they agree that this is an instance where sex based rights trump trans rights

I wouldn’t get your hopes up. The response I’ve seen in the past is some combination of “but women are violent, too”, “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time”, and “it never happens”. I have never seen a direct answer to the question “do women prisoners have the right not to be locked up with male bodied people”?, there is only obfuscation to avoid answering “no, they don’t”.

One poster on a thread about this (can't remember if it was AIBU or here) quite explicitly stated that as far as they were concerned they couldn't give a shit if women were raped or abused in prison, in fact they deserved it for ending up in prison anyway.

There was a poster a while ago arguing that TW should be housed with women, because the women in the female estate, many victims of sexual abuse, assault, DV, are treated more kindly by staff. Oh and women in prison have privileges and it's not fair. Their privileges? Access to makeup and 'woman' clothes, I shit you not.

*So we should put sex offenders in with women because makeup. .

One of our most persistent supporters of everything TW want or do is okay, nothing women do or want is acceptable, frequently to be found asking give me just one example, no not that example, can't base anything on just one example, give me more, no not that's not enough, give me more, no they don't count ad nauseum. There is never enough harm to women that they will acknowledge because they care not one iota for women or harms caused to them.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

In fairness to her I should say that SH is a very well respected barrister. However, no amount of advocacy skill can fully offset gaping holes in your case. The MOJ haven’t got good data.

I second this. She represented me in my son's education tribunal and she was brilliant.

She can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, though!

FairPlayForWomen
@fairplaywomen
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1m
Defence asserts that the trans prison policy (that always male-born sex offenders supervised association with women) does not breach article 3 of human rights "inhumane or degrading treatment" of the women. /37

CCB - complex case boards I think. It’s the assessment process within the prison system about where certain prisoners need to be placed eg a TW

1m
Defence asserts that the trans prison policy (that always male-born sex offenders supervised association with women) does not breach article 3 of human rights "inhumane or degrading treatment" of the women. /37

How does this square with how female POWs are treated?

FPFW:

Because in effect only the safe ones go into the women's prison and if they are dangerous they are supervised.

Not being supervised well enough though are they, if women are being sexually assaulted.

My mind just goes numb with horror that there are people in this world who think that women being locked up 24/7 with a convicted male sex offender with nowhere to escape to isn't inhumane or degrading. The psychological aspect alone must be torturous.