Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

I think it's also useful to look at some of the 'selective silences' of high profile TRAs.

There are some very prominent TRAs with large platforms who generally comment on any issues as they crop up in the media, yet remain silent on certain aspects. Yesterday's Telegraph article is a good example of this. Only some of the most invested individuals chose to talk about it, with many others steering clear. Could it possibly be that they don't actually agree with 12+ year olds being able to access cross sex hormones without parental knowledge due to a legal loophole being exploited by a suspended GP? The problem is, they wouldn't be able to voice their concerns without getting a ridiculous amount of backlash, so they stay silent and many take their silence to assume agreement.

@Ninkanink

I think it depends on how far along one is on this particular critical journey...for me there is no room left for any meaningful doubt on this. I have done years and years of wrestling with this and the many related issues and as I said previously, I have the courage of my hard-earned convictions.

This is where I am.

It's been over 7 years since my eyes were opened to this and since then there's hardly been a day where I've not read or engaged with the subject in some way.

Some may say I'm obsessed but once you see what an all out attack on the rights of women and girls this is and the wider implications of forcing an ideology on all of us, it becomes impossible to look away and do nothing.

My position is not a belief, it's accepting the reality that sex is real, it matters and it can't be changed.

@yourhairiswinterfire perfectly put. Thank you

I posted to the wrong thread and asked for my post to be deleted.

I was very much on the pro-trans TWAW side. I think I saw it as the same as being gay and saw trans rights in the same light.

The Bell case made me question and look into things more. After watching and reading about de-transitioner stories I started looking at myself and my LGBT+ and woke friends and going 'omg, are we the baddies?'.

I do not have certainty that my current opinion is 100% correct but I think this experience has shown me that certainty can be overrated and that caution has value.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

They can't read as all these threads end up exact the same. Women describing how any doubt ends up cementing their ideas.

*exactly

@ArabellaScott

People who never question their beliefs are not practising critical thinking. A lack of critical thinking and logic is at the root of some of the problems we're up against. Emotive, feelings-based ideas are often less rational. Which isn't to say feelings don't matter, just that they are not always the best metric to base law and policy on.

I question my beliefs all the time.

I have thrown out a whole system of belief, which action carried with it the need to discard absolutely everything I had known to be true about myself as well as the world. I have built up, from scratch, a personhood separate to the one that had been foisted onto me. It was rough. It almost killed me, tbh. But I survived, and thrive. Examining with critical distance is central to my being now by virtue of the hard work I’ve done on this in the past (and, probably more so, the things I have personally seen and experienced in my lifetime).

But on this particular issue I stand firm. I know exactly where my line is.

My position is not a belief, it's accepting the reality that sex is real, it matters and it can't be changed.

That is a very important point too.

@WarriorN

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

They can't read as all these threads end up exact the same. Women describing how any doubt ends up cementing their ideas.

it's on twitter as well - they hope that OP will lose her job (sorry to report that OP) and think that we are all evil.

Every time I see what the activists are saying about our discussions and how evil we are to want to maintain women's rights and safeguarding for children, it cements my resolve further.

We are not the bad guys.

I question my beliefs all the time.

But on this particular issue I stand firm. I know exactly where my line is.

^^ This

Ugh, it's just the same old woman hating crap misogyny that's always been about.

Just now with blue hair and pronoun badges.

Jeeze just wasted 5 mins reading Twitter.

Exactly that garden.

@WarriorN

Ugh, it's just the same old woman hating crap misogyny that's always been about.

Just now with blue hair and pronoun badges.

I remember one of those self-styled relationship coaches saying something that covers a multitude of circumstances to people wondering why they always fall for the wrong person:

You're falling for the same man in different trousers.

Always the same gynaephobia or misogyny in whatever the current fashions are and always in line with what benefis the patriarchy.

Personally I sort of gave up when I realised prisons have never been single sex. And even then I was like, this isn’t a fight that effects me every day. Women have been give the short straw in coronavirus job losses, I want to fight for their rights, for more companies to have equal pay, to have better representation in boardrooms.

to have better representation in boardrooms.

And that's great, but when transwomen who've had full careers are counted as women on a company board, it's still the same old patriarchal rules, innit.

@Daca

Hi OP, what you are describing is the external pressure to conform. You don’t have to internalise this.

Humans periodically have really bad ideas. The United States is an empire that’s projecting its own norms onto the rest of the planet (helped by tech companies that pose as ‘global’ but very much do have a nationality). And even within the US, there are many who question the ideology, it’s just that the ruling class has embraced it. A ruling class that is no longer ‘white’ but multiracial and almost exclusively recruited from a very small socio-economic pool. It’s a decadent elite and the idea that what humans think or feel can transcend material reality is one of their luxury beliefs. It’s the classic story of human hubris - the question is only, when will Icarus get too close to the sun? Good luck OP, you are in a hostile environment but it’s ultimately not about you. (PS: the fact that you have doubts speaks well about you)

Well said, Daca.

it's on twitter as well - they hope that OP will lose her job (sorry to report that OP) and think that we are all evil.

Anyone hoping that a randomer on the internet will lose their job really needs to ask themselves, "Are we the baddies?"

It's funny that the trans ideological view is that we're coming round to their way of thinking, because we're prepared to debate, consider evidence and review our thoughts, while they're not.

Part of the problem I see with the whole thing is not just that it's IMO factually and logically bollocks, but the scary absolutism and insistence that everyone has to think the same way. Aside from what they actually believe, that in itself is a massive problem that any intelligent person should be able to see is comparable to some of the most regrettable episodes in history.

If I ever find myself wavering, I read some of the detransitioner stories, which are sadly increasing in number, or I look back at the abuse, vitriol and hatred directed at (mainly) women by those pushing this toxic orthodoxy. Usually does the trick and concentrates my resolve.

@Hulo

No, because we can't change sex. The whole thing is a lie

And remember what we do support; we support freedom of gendered expression and gender non-conformity, we support trans rights, we support women's sex-based rights, we support same-sex relationships, we support freedom of choice, we support a child-centred holistic non-labelling flexible approach to working with children and young people with gender issues - but we can't support a lie

I ask myself the question all the time and I always come back to what Hulo said.

Part of the problem I see with the whole thing is not just that it's IMO factually and logically bollocks, but the scary absolutism and insistence that everyone has to think the same way. Aside from what they actually believe, that in itself is a massive problem that any intelligent person should be able to see is comparable to some of the most regrettable episodes in history.

This. We have been here many times before, with truly horrendous consequences. And yet, people don’t learn.

‘The only thing we learn from history...’

No, because we can't change sex. The whole thing is a lie

And remember what we do support; we support freedom of gendered expression and gender non-conformity, we support trans rights, we support women's sex-based rights, we support same-sex relationships, we support freedom of choice, we support a child-centred holistic non-labelling flexible approach to working with children and young people with gender issues - but we can't support a lie.

This deserves to be in bold.

A million times this.

@Conniethesensible

Personally I sort of gave up when I realised prisons have never been single sex. And even then I was like, this isn’t a fight that effects me every day. Women have been give the short straw in coronavirus job losses, I want to fight for their rights, for more companies to have equal pay, to have better representation in boardrooms.

do you think we have much chance of gaining equal pay and better representation in boardrooms if companies count people who have enjoyed the rewards of male advantage and socialisation as women?

You might think that there won't be enough to skew the figures significantly but how do we know that? We didn't think that 2 out of 6 panellists on the 5050 Parliament (getting women into politics) event would have been male born late transitioners but they were there speaking as women (despite openly having no interest in the issues of women).

Equality laws are there for a reason. Employers cannot all be trusted to treat their employees fairly, hence they have to be forced in law to not discriminate against people. Even though there are laws to prevent it, discrimination still happens.

Do you think for one minute that unscrupulous employers will not take advantage of being allowed to count self identified women in their equality stats?

@AbstractHeart

It's not about "goodies" and "baddies", this is just the latter part of the process of social change.

First minority opinions build momentum until they become the majority view. Then the remaining people experience social pressure to conform to this new majority view (this is where you are now). Those that are unable to change their view get a label (in this case "transphobe", but in other examples "racist", "homophobe", "sexist", "technophobe", etc).

Or in other examples, “partisans”, “enemies of the people”, “the resistance”, “the underground”.

Going back to the M+W reference...

The intolerant woke (the ones who believe they are tolerant yet demand total obedience and believe it’s justified to use violence and blackmail to silence opposing views because people can’t be trusted to hear them and make the “right” decisions) think of Nazism as being a culture so intolerant of specific people - Jewish people, gay people, Romany people, people who aren’t white - that they actually murdered them. To the intolerant woke, calling someone a “Nazi” is just a super-charged version of calling them a “Bigot”.

But they never think about the mechanisms the Nazis used to create that culture in the first place: the threats, the black and white positions, the book burning, the purging of wrongthink, the manipulation of the media, the control of education and local government, the “we good people are at terrible risk of an enemy who hates us and wants to destroy us” narrative, the duty to identify and inform on anyone not part of the group ideology, the requirement to engage in public performances of allegiance, the use of public shame and denouncement to discourage dissent, the gradual leverage of social pressure to move a whole population to accept dreadful things.

Those of us who lived through the mid and late twentieth century know this risk because we saw it played out, not only the Nazis but also the purges in Soviet Russia, the Chinese cultural revolutions, the secret police in the satellite states of the Eastern bloc. The horror of the Nazi was not only how evil individual humans can be, but how totalitarianism, social control and suppression of dissent can support evil on an industrial scale.

That awareness seems to have dropped out of popular (online) discourse, turning the Nazis into simple “baddies who are bad because they are bad” and therefore someone the woke can safely use as a boogyman even as they start to embrace the same methods and mindset.

I know l’m not a “baddie” because I don’t want to stop trans people existing, or talking, or organising together, or marching, or loving. All I want is a recognition that female people also exist, and while we all wish sexism had gone away the reality is female are still marginalised, under-represented and at times abused because of our sex, so female people should also be able to talk together, organise, support, protect and love each other without being required to include males in all things.

It doesn’t make me a baddie to say that gender identity needs to exist alongside the reality of sex not replace it.