Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

@JaninaDuszejko

the Right generally prefers to support traditional gender roles while the Left wants to disrupt/get rid of them

Left and Right are essentially economic viewpoints. Moral issues are on a different axis and when you look at when important pieces of legislation was passed it's a mix of left and right governments, e.g.the slave trade was abolished by a Tory government and slavery was abolished by a Whig government. Women initially got the vote during a Coalition government, and the franchise was equalised between men and women under a Conservative government. Homosexuality was decriminalised by a Labour government and gay marriage was legalised by a Conservative government.

We should not assume that left leaning men all support women's rights, history shows we have been let down by them repeatedly over the last two centuries.

Absolutely.

@CaledonianMacBrayne

No makes t shirts with “yay! My Mum’s concerns ensured I would have full sexual function when I was 35!” On them.

Time for a crowdfunded?

@Biscuitsanddoombar

I do find it ironic that TRA who have ensured that anyone speaking publicly on this issue who doesn’t believe TWAW gets piled on/threatened/sacked/advised/doxxed/banned to the point where only the privileged few who are unsackable or independently wealthy can speak out

Then use it as a “gotcha”
“Aha look no else agrees with you”

I wouldn’t be proud of that myself, if they are on the side of the angels why not allow full free and Frank discussion? Surely the power of their logical arguments would carry the day right?

I've seen decent, sane Left wing people in 'arts twitter' bullied offline for having anything other than the TRA opinion on this. I think there are a lot of people who think what's going on is cultish and very damaging to young people, but are scared to speak out, both of the social media pile ons and death threats and now the job insecurity, especially in the arts - can you imagine the Incel/Tumblr-teen pile-on on any young actor who accepts a part in the mooted Harry Potter TV series, for example? And Radio 4's The Purity Spiral gives some great examples of how a pile-on can destroy a new book before it's even out there. And of course if you want instant love and praise and sales and followers for your new project, or want to revive a flagging career, court the teen TRA vote.

And don't underestimate the role of professional jealousy in this, especially in the arts, when it comes to which 'side' people take re- JKR.

I do, all the time, because I am sure I would lose a lot of friends and contacts I'm very fond of over this.

Then you see how intimidating some trans identifying people can be over, eg, the toilet issue we're not supposed to be angry over. The aggression, the gloating about being in women's space, violent memes about what they'll do to anyone who calls them out in there, even selfies flashing.

I'm sure most trans women do want to 'pee in peace' and this must be horrible for them to be caught up in. But the entitlement from TRAs who don't care about what they are doing to women by barging into single sex spaces and literally willy waving, just can't be coming from a good place.

And yes, I agree with whoever said that ‘sex and gender are different things’ is a politically progressive position.

Me too. It's the conflating of sex and gender that causes the problems. I totally support anyone exploring and expressing their gender identity.

I don't see why that should mean males with a femme gender identity should participate in female sports.

There is a balance that can be achieved - there has to be.

Because transgenderism is not going away. When homosexuality was first legalised everyone believed children would be molested and society would split apart at the seems. It didn't. I believe it's very en vogue at the minute especially with teens but given a decade or so it will die down when it's not a new thing.

I was very on the fence until I went to university with a trans man (FTM) he was a very good friend and had transitioned at 16. There were many on our course who never even noticed. He had suffered crippling depression and self harm all throughout his teenage years. He came out in a psychiatric unit after his second suicide attempt. His Father and most of his family wanted nothing more to do with him, that was not a decision taken lightly.

He was 21 when I met him had been living as a man for five years. He was not mentally unwell, he did not pose a menace to society and he was just a normal person who thrived for the first time in his life when he felt comfortable in his own skin.

It really makes no difference to me what someone else does with their genitals. I've known three trans individuals over the years and none of them are abusers, they just want to live their lives in peace and I can't argue with that. A small minority destroy it for the entire community.

The problem with 'trans reform' is that the word? All parties need protecting and that is not currently happening. The current laws focus on the rights of biological men(mtf) and little on the rights of biological women (ftm) and in turn normal women. That needs to change, then again I believe society as a whole needs a complete transformation from the archaic rigidity we face.

2021 - they can land apparatus on mars but women aren't paid equal wages. Minorities are still being attacked in the streets, women are still inferior in walks of life, black people are having to riot for equal treatment, the world is still run by rich white men. It's the whole of that needs to change.

I truly believe over the next ten to twenty years we are finally on the cusp of a new world and I can't wait for it.

But there are women I admire who I know in real life who find the whole current thing very unsettling, and that helps - seeing 'good people' with similar politics who get it.
and
I do, all the time, because I am sure I would lose a lot of friends and contacts I'm very fond of over this.

I know very few people IRL who even vaguely understand the issue beyond the call to be kind. I would lose a lot of friends, family and colleagues - women I hugely admire RT mimmymim's slurs about the funding of women's legal actions etc..

Women who hold professorships in medicine and even specialise in women's sex issues RT nonsense about tables and how it proves TWAW. The ones who supported women in the vaginal mesh scandal are entirely happy for children to be given PBs and Xsex hormones on demand.

It's beyond wretched.

www.voorzij.nl/more-research-is-urgently-needed-into-transgender-care-for-young-people-where-does-the-large-increase-of-children-come-from/

God, no. And I haven't seen a single convincing argument to say otherwise. Not one. Quite the opposite.

The arguments for the GC position are constantly piling up, backed up by law courts, HoL, etc. But nothing meaningful ever refutes them, just #NoDebate, Dentons, etc, underpinned with horrific threats for non compliance.

TRAs themselves said that stealth and secrecy was vital because the public would never accept it otherwise!

And it's not particularly political here. Left wingers also agree - hence LabourLosingWomen, WPUK, all the ideologically left leaning mumsnetters, etc. It's cross party.

@Ninkanink

No, never.

I have the courage of my convictions, and of it comes right down to it this is the hill I will die on.

Same here. No. A thousand times no. Never once doubted.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

Just so they know it: the answer is NO. Never. Not for a second.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

It's quite a regular topic over the last few years. There are lots of self-reflective posters here. - And the more so when you've known people personally or professionally for a very long time and know how they'd respond if I questioned when they'd come to believe that sex is a spectrum in humans and (for example) how they reconciled that with their decades of research into reproductive medicine.

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff".

His position is like saying 'All lives matter'. Black people are oppressed because of their race, women are oppressed because of their sex. If anyone can be a woman and sex has nothing to do with it then it is denying the root of women's oppression.

I often think worry this but the big one for me is allowing children to take drugs that will permanently change them in a way that they may decide later wasn't actually what they wanted.
I have suffered from several mental illnesses in my life. As a teenager I was absolutely convinced that I was fat and needed to lose weight. So I starved myself, halved my body weight and ended up as 5 stone. Thank god I was stopped, persuaded I was wrong and helped to recover. Otherwise I may have died.
As a new mother I was convinced that I was an awful mother (when I was the opposite) and needed to put my baby up for adoption. Thank god I was supported to see that that wasn't the only option for me, my mental health recovered and I am a very good and happy mother. The thought that someone could have just taken me at my word when I was so vulnerable and mixed up, that I could have lost my darling baby is terrifying.

I normally doubt my own beliefs a lot, but on this issue I don't. The more I read, the more I learn, the more I 'educate myself' the more convinced I am. As someone who works with teenage girls, I am absolutely convinced this is doing them immense harm. Nearly everyone I speak to agree with me, but is too scared to speak out.

Rand Paul agrees with me that you shouldn't sterilise children. I'm 100% OK with that.

Neutralise it.

Do you believe it is right or wrong to threaten to rape or kill (or kerb stomp for crying out loud, can you imagine the horror and terror and harm of that??) someone who disagrees with you?

Do you feel that visualising and describing (often in pleasurable detail) doing this to someone else under any circumstances whatsoever is a typical, every day acceptable thing that most people do when someone annoys them?

Do you believe that inclusion justifiably means excluding and punishing a group by removal of all services if they won't conform to your personal politics?

Do you believe that the consent of a female, including a female child, should always be predicated not on her feelings, her bodily boundaries and her needs, but on the consent of a male person who may find her having boundaries they don't agree with too upsetting to tolerate? Do you believe this is a healthy way for society to train women? Do you believe this furthers women's equality?

Do you believe that it is possible to find ways and variety of provision that meets all needs, or do you believe that some provisions should be removed altogether from female people regardless of the impact and exclusion on them, as it is just too distressing for male people that these provisions exist and are not accessible for them?

Do you believe child safeguarding should be watertight and equal in expectation in all situations without exception?

Do you believe that compelled belief, compelled speech, and the idea of removing equality of civil rights and human rights from those who will not comply is something done in a modern, civilised and ethical society?

Decide for yourself. What is right, what is wrong. What are your personal ethics. That's all you need to do.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

Perhaps those TRAs are newbies. This question is asked regularly on here. Right down to the quote from Mitchel and Webb!

I find it hard to reconcile the decades of solidarity I have felt and demonstrated with trans people, and the hateful and bewildering words and actions of TRAs online. In RL I would do anything to support or protect a trans person "in the moment", it is not you trans peeps lurking that I have any issue with, it is the ideology that refuses to accept that the needs of women and trans women must be balanced because it is held there are no needs, risks and interests pertaining only to biological women. I've been on TR forums because I want to challenge my views, and stay grounded in compassion for the real agony that many trans people experience, but the level of contempt for biological women, even allies, and dismissal of the rights of children in those places are chilling.
I personally feel the tide is turning. I think people generally believed, as I did, that the trans rights movement want the same as the lesbian and gay liberation do and are broadly supportive - the "it doesn't affect me" camp. When the logical conclusion of the demands of trans rights activism and impact on others become more apparent more people will challenge.

People who never question their beliefs are not practising critical thinking. A lack of critical thinking and logic is at the root of some of the problems we're up against. Emotive, feelings-based ideas are often less rational. Which isn't to say feelings don't matter, just that they are not always the best metric to base law and policy on.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Neutralise it.

Do you believe it is right or wrong to threaten to rape or kill (or kerb stomp for crying out loud, can you imagine the horror and terror and harm of that??) someone who disagrees with you?

Do you feel that visualising and describing (often in pleasurable detail) doing this to someone else under any circumstances whatsoever is a typical, every day acceptable thing that most people do when someone annoys them?

Do you believe that inclusion justifiably means excluding and punishing a group by removal of all services if they won't conform to your personal politics?

Do you believe that the consent of a female, including a female child, should always be predicated not on her feelings, her bodily boundaries and her needs, but on the consent of a male person who may find her having boundaries they don't agree with too upsetting to tolerate? Do you believe this is a healthy way for society to train women? Do you believe this furthers women's equality?

Do you believe that it is possible to find ways and variety of provision that meets all needs, or do you believe that some provisions should be removed altogether from female people regardless of the impact and exclusion on them, as it is just too distressing for male people that these provisions exist and are not accessible for them?

Do you believe child safeguarding should be watertight and equal in expectation in all situations without exception?

Do you believe that compelled belief, compelled speech, and the idea of removing equality of civil rights and human rights from those who will not comply is something done in a modern, civilised and ethical society?

Decide for yourself. What is right, what is wrong. What are your personal ethics. That's all you need to do.

Brilliantly put.

No, because children have been sterilised because of the toys they prefer to play with.
Women get death and rape threats online because they know where babies come from.
Black women are somehow seen to be like men by activists.
Same sex attraction needs to be overcome

Etcetc. We aren't the baddies.

“Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realize that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back!”

• J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

@HighHeelBoots

Working with children who are tortured by their bodies must be tough but how to treat them should be guided by research and not by lobby groups. Pretending they are the opposite sex can only lead to more problems

And what is she doing to prevent them having body parts removed? Is she affirming their magical thinking? If so she is being unethical. She might not wish to see this about herself and so keeps her hands over her ears.

Sorry I haven’t read the full thread.

I just wanted to comment to sympathise with the OP, because I think one of the really shit side effects of all of this in work places has been to implicitly position those who want to stand up and speak out for the rights of women as reactionary bigots. My work place is in the middle of all this, and it feels like I am the only one speaking out (as others have mentioned, the fucking men generally see this as not their issue/a minority concern). I have started pointing out to HR and the senior people that actually they have a responsibility here to not allow the fuelling of that sort of division; I don’t think it had really occurred to them, and I don’t think they had fully grasped the extent of the self censorship and fear held by those of us who haven’t bought the gender woo. There’s a lot of virtue signalling flag waving going on, but very little of it is actually well thought through. Once you start challenging that and asking them to think through the implications, then I think more start to see that the position isn’t as solid and easy as they previously thought (an emphasis on the “easy” there - I think many are attracted to the TRA position as they think it’s a cost free way of displaying their left liberal credentials. When they are made to pause and think about what that might mean for, say, women from religious communities which don’t not allow the sexes to mix in certain contexts, or sexual assault victims (20% of women) then they do start to see this is not quite the easy “good v evil” they thought it was.)

But to more directly answer your question: yes of course I regularly check myself. I try to read stuff from the trans standpoint too. That’s just good reflexive thinking. And I’m happy to say I haven’t changed my position. If anything I’ve strengthened it.
But I do also see that there are, inevitably, some errors expressed on the radfem side. For example I think it’s fair to say the Brighton “chest feeding” stuff was over stated. I might be wrong (I’m sure someone will say if so!) but when I looked into that, it did seem that the chest feeding thing was specifically for transmen. It won’t be the term used for the wider maternity service. Personally I’m fine with that. I think that’s what we want (to recognise the different needs of trans people and provide appropriate services to then, but not to adapt the services for the majority of women just to cater for the tiny tiny minority).
Of course I can understand, in the context of the erasure of the word “woman” that there is extreme sensitivity, which is why the chest feeding was jumped on. But mistakes like that don’t make us bad. They make us human

No.

I read differing views all the time. Some are polite and I can appreciate where they're coming from but still find myself respectfully disagreeing. Some views are so out there I have to suspend my disbelief...

I don't think rapists belong in women's prison. I don't think any males belong in women's prisons. Not all men are rapists or abusers, but we can't tell the good from the bad, so we exclude them all for good reasons.

I don't think women and children who are fleeing domestic abuse, or women who have been raped should be forced to share a refuge, their only safe space, with males. They need time to recover away from them. This shouldn't be controversial.

I think women who have been raped or sexually assaulted should have the right to request a female examiner in the aftermath. I was horrified at all the adults ''shaking and sobbing'' in disgust and abusing women online when Scotland decided to allow women this choice. I'm definitely not the bad guy in that scenario.

I don't think male bodied athletes should be allowed to cheat women out of their medals and money. I've seen the evidence that it's unfair. I read the 'other side' debunking that evidence for balance. It's not fair, and in many cases it's not safe for the women, who can't speak out about it without facing a nasty backlash.

I don't think it's right that young children are pushed immediately onto an irreversible medical pathway because they're questioning their gender. Before the recent reverse ferret, it was based on nothing more than liking the 'wrong' toys, clothes or hobbies (even now, after the reverse ferret, it's still not clear what they're basing it on). I truly believe it will all blow up and be the biggest scandal of our time. The High Court recently confirmed my concerns. Three judges all in agreement, after viewing thousands of pages of evidence and hearing from experts in the field.

I don't think women need to be degraded to please a tiny number of people. Include transmen, by all means, but don't call me a menstruator, a vulva owner, an ovary-haver to do so. There are respectful ways to include everyone that aren't dehumanising. Orgs are loving this, they seem to be using it as an opportunity to be as gross, offensive and misogynistic as they can. 'Black birthing bodies' and 'autistics with a cervix' was quite a low point.

I've never threatened to kill anyone, or rape anyone, or attempted to get anyone sacked for having a different opinion to me. I've never threated someone so badly that they need security with them whilst they work. I'd never dream of threatening anyone's children, or writing to a mother and detailing graphically how I hope her children will die because she said something I disagree with. I've never punched a woman for attending a women's meeting. I would never make effigies of women to hang because they don't agree with me. I could never imagine being the kind of person that makes bomb threats to prevent a group having a meeting.

I'd also never tweet a picture of a coffin and express my excitement that someone's fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers will be dead soon, all because they believe that mothers should be referred to as mothers in a maternity bill.

I recognise biology. I'm grounded in reality. I read opposite opinions and I'm always open to having my mind changed. If any of my above views make me a 'baddie', so be it.