Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

No. I was one of the women who didn't have a problem with it when it was a tiny number of transsexuals who suffered from dysphoria and didn't claim to be literally women. I was on the side of being kind to them, because their lives were difficult enough.

The moment people started claiming that TWAW and that they belonged in every possible women's space, I knew it was wrong. The moment someone called me 'cis' and insisted I had to identify with the stereotypes I've been fighting since literally age four, I knew it was wrong. The moment I read about the 'cotton ceiling'. Lila Perry. Andreya Yearwood. Lily Madigan.

The truth matters - and TWAW, 'sex is a spectrum', literally gendered brains in wrong bodies, and the other associated ideological nonsense is so absurd that I find it difficult to believe anyone genuinely thinks it's true and isn't just saying it because they believe it's 'kind' or 'progressive' - or because they would like it to be true.

The hub of the problem is male violence and how vulnerable women are to this. I have to some extent lived a charmed life surrounded by wonderful, caring men to whom the idea of hurting a woman is anathema. However, my eyes were opened when someone who babysat my own children was killed by her so called " loving" "pillar of the community" husband. Moreover, my own sexual harassment by numerous male strangers had already made me well aware that all men were not like those with whom I had the good fortune to live.
Transwomen are entitled to live as they wish and not suffer discrimination because of it. However, they remain males with exactly the same patterns of criminality and sexual offending as other males and thus can present a real danger to women when they are vulnerable. Nobody would put a random male prisoner in a female prison, so why is a transwomen different when potentially they present the same danger to female prisoners.
Live as you wish, dress as you please, love whom you wish but sometimes sex matters.

You are the baddies. You’re going to realise one day you’re on the wrong side of history.

Great post @Blibbyblobby

Latter part of a process of social change? Bollocks.

It is a very specific, and well documented process derived from Postmodern Theory (a marxist offshoot) that uses social psychology to achieve its aims. It cannot suceed longterm because it shuts down debate, denies reality or any underlying truth other than that which we give meaning to and makes new hierachies of oppression and dominant discourses which must then alos be deconstructed.

The genius of Woke is that it weaponises words and captures people who believe they have the moral highground. It's evil is that it destroys the very processes that have the capacity to truly make society fairer, in fact the very processes that have brought our society to the place where tolerance and inclusion are so valued they can be weoponised by a movement.

I will not bend in the face of the mob, because the mob is gravely mistaken.

Yes OP I'm left wing and have always considered myself an LGBTQ ally.

I then saw the mumsnet feminism board and was then shocked at the apparently well presented arguments and information about trans women and it made sense if your only info is from these boards.

I still wasn't vitriolic toward trans people and was uncomfortable with a lot of the general views toward trans people but still believed in the threat they posed to women and their intentions.

I then looked into it further and I no longer feel this way at all. I feel like a lot of information is misrepresented or over stated and there is so much focus on trans "ideology" that the fact that trans women are actual living breathing people, most of whom want to get on with their lives and already face a lot of their own adversity is completely ignored.

I know this will not be well received here but OP yes I also realised this take was the bad take when i realised who the sort of people who also held this view were..

Women are leaving breathing people who face a lot of adversity too but somehow that never seems to matter 🤔

Why do you assume that by talking about transwomen I automatically don't care about women? You sound exactly like an MRA saying feminism shouldn't exist because men suffer too 🤔

It's honestly all I ever see on here. I'm talking about transwomen because it's pertinent to what I'm trying to articulate, quelle surprise!

Are you challenging these people at all? If not, what is the worst that could happen if you did? If so, what is the worst thing that could happen if you did more strenuously?

< hollow laugh >

If you only get information from these boards, does that mean you never read any of the wonderful resources linked on the posts here?

I've learned about different types of feminism, genetics, the expression of the SRY gene and it's effects, the long term effects of lupron, lots of philosophical and political positions, the effect of puberty on muscle mass and bone density, various dsd disorders, rates of offending in men and women, political linguistics...honestly, I am missing huge amounts of things I have learned from the women on this board.

I've been pointed there by this board, but to say I only got information from this board would be very reductive.

Sorry I mean the social and cultural perspective of how trans women are portrayed and the threats they are percieved to pose towards women.

It's nothing to do with any other side of it, I just mean it solely changed my perception of trans women (temporarily as it turned out).

@Regularsizedrudy

You are the baddies. You’re going to realise one day you’re on the wrong side of history.

Care to elaborate like everyone else has done, or are you just going to plop and run, considering us schooled?

Everyone said we were on the wRoNg SiDe Of HiStOrY for thinking (well knowing) that very young children can't consent to life changing procedures...we were vindicated by the High Court. That's just one example.

Do explain how we're on the ''wrong side'' please.

I would say it would also be wise to look elsewhere for sources of information too.

That's not aimed at anything in particular you've said just as a general thing. As of course people will mainly post here stuff that contributes to their opinion. That's perfectly natural and it doesn't mean it's not accurate! But also that there may be other sources of information that do nòt draw the same conclusions or that come from different sources with different biases etc. As it's always going to be present in one form or another

Definitely time for a Bunbury flag.

Sorry I mean the social and cultural perspective of how trans women are portrayed and the threats they are percieved to pose towards women.

Statistically Males pose a threat to women and all evidence shows that Males who identify as women share the same patterns of violence and sexual offending against women as other males so perception doesn't apply, this is just a fact. Not all transwomen are like this but then again neither are all males like this. So why are we be group of males ok but not the test?

Why are one group of males ok but the test not?

@Regularsizedrudy

You are the baddies. You’re going to realise one day you’re on the wrong side of history.

Okay, but then do you want to be the Jedis next time and I'll be the ewoks?

Rest!!!!!

Yes! When people I really respect, especially those in my peer group I've known forever spout TWAW I do get a moment when I think AM I just a middle aged Karen scared of change. Then I look at all the shit going on and KNOW it's them not me who's in the wrong. Hard to block people you've known your whole life though.

@Regularsizedrudy

You are the baddies. You’re going to realise one day you’re on the wrong side of history.

People who say this know absolutely nothing about history - how it's studied, or how it actually works.

My position is not a belief, it's accepting the reality that sex is real, it matters and it can't be changed.
Well put

@Regularsizedrudy

You are the baddies. You’re going to realise one day you’re on the wrong side of history.

I'm 100% certain this will never happen but nice try 🍩 have sprinkles

So one group of people thinks , talks, presents a reasoned argument

And the response is "you're all baddies "

'The wrong side of history'

Oh for goodness sake, what does that even mean?

Germany, 1938. Most Germans believed they were on the right side of history (or at least were very careful to say so loudly and convincingly). For about five years, yes, flags and marches and camps were all the rage. Were they still on the right side of history in 1945? Should the allies have rushed to join them on the grounds that in that moment they were on the 'right side of history'?

At one point in history, wearing flares and singing Agadoo was quite fashionable. At one point, forcing children to go up chimneys or shipping children off to be abused in Canada was terribly modern and all the rage.

You've got a brain. Engage it. Stop using silly marketing slogans you haven't even thought through because you really might as well be chanting you're worth it, or you can't get better than a quickfit fitter, and think .

Fashionable isn't the same as 'right'. And any future where women have lost sex based rights is one with a large women's movement in it fighting every day because it will be ethically, morally wrong. Regardless of childish slogans.

"I know this will not be well received here but OP yes I also realised this take was the bad take when i realised who the sort of people who also held this view were.."

So you're admitting to a logical fallacy as being a key part of what motivated you!?

OK, it's nice that you are honest about it, but it doesn't help your case. If you're that irrational... should anyone trust that you properly looked at the issues?

And lots of people would have doubts about aspects of transgender activism. The far-right sure; but also plenty of mainstream conservatives, and some on the political left. Remember that what goes on at the party political level, or activist groups, or Twitter, doesn't necessarily accurately reflect the general population.

Of course, as a previous poster has so eloquently suggested, it is very important to listen to the ‘other side’. There are numerous accounts by transgender people, for example Andrea Long Chu’s recent book Females, which defines the “barest essentials” of “femaleness” as “an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes”. (Direct quote) I couldn’t put it much better myself, really.

So yes, keep an open mind, listen to all voices and then history, in its inevitable forward march towards universal justice, will show us who has won the argument. Because it’s all about ‘winning’, right?