Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

Just as a technical point, if you were the 'bad guys' then you wouldn't really expect trans people to be going through this same introspection.

Why? It's a healthy thing to do? Blindly going along with what your in group tells you is right is not.

@Winesalot

Deathgrip

Are you implying that those stating no one is born in the wrong body are right wing? Or that it is a ‘the sky is blue’ point of view?

🙄

I’m saying that there are many people who believe that they have been. I’m saying that outright stating this is impossible is not conducive to working towards understanding. Those with gender dysphoria have been dealt a shitty hand, and are not the people I have any issue with, any more than I have an issue with those who are anorexic. I don’t agree that the right way to deal with gender dysphoria is damaging medication and surgery, and I don’t agree with self ID, but I also don’t want to belittle or demean those with gender dysphoria.

At no point did I conflate that specific view with being right wing, but sure, feel free to dismiss what I’m saying and we will go round and round in the same circles.

Yes. To be honest I feel so exhausted, so tired. So exhausted and tired from trying to explain to people how self-ID negatively affects women, how men who haven't transitioned via operation being in women's spaces affects women. I've been banned from more Facebook groups than I can count. No matter how well I explain it, no matter how gently, softly, how congenial I try to approach it, they just don't understand. They don't want to understand. Even if in a debate I prove someone wrong with a link to something, they just dismiss it and dance around the issue, refusing to even acknowledge it's a problem.

I don't know what to do. I've taken a bit of a break from fighting this war because I feel so exhausted, and yes, on some level occasionally I've had that thought that maybe I'm wrong. But then I remember that person claiming they were a female who sued female spa clinics for not waxing around his balls. I remember the abuse I've copped for merely saying that men ARE stronger physically because of testosterone, and how we are all #MeToo but then expect each other to just put up with having men in our spaces. And it makes me angry at the injustice of it all.

But what can we do? It's like going to the beach and trying to turn the waves back with a household broom. I just don't know what we can do. It really makes me feel so depressed. On occasions I admit I've cried over it (after failing to get people online to see and understand). I feel depressed and exhausted. Angry and frustrated. And I don't know what we can do.

Do TRA (I use the term advisedly as opposed to the wider trans population) ever wonder if they are the bad guys what with the choke on my lady dick/it’s fine to give children life altering medication/removing healthy body parts is fine/people who don’t agree with us should be fired or “actively educated”? Do they hell! I admire their single minded relentless focus on what they want

I’m quite happy on the ‘dress as you want/call yourself what you want/perform whatever stereotypes you like/of course trans peoples human rights must be safeguarded you just cannot have woman’s rights because they are for women’ side

And yes, I agree with whoever said that ‘sex and gender are different things’ is a politically progressive position. The difference between Left and Right (among those who accept the concept of biological reality) is that the Right generally prefers to support traditional gender roles while the Left wants to disrupt/get rid of them. But both groups accept the reality of biological sex.

We need one of those dual-axis charts with left/right on one axis and biology/TWAW on the other axis ....

The thing is there are vitally important overarching principles here - reality and biological fact should always trump ideological nonsense. Further, the importance of freedom of speech/freedom to offend and the right to state biological fact without fear of harassment and/or losing one’s job. And further to that, the very present danger of the Orwellian Nightmare - we’re already living in Nineteen Eighty-four in many ways, and if there isn’t enough push back it will only get much worse very quickly.

These issues transcend politics. I don’t have to agree with everything an individual says - if we broadly agree on those principles above, we are allies in this respect.

I'm only about 4 months in and I have wobbles. I keep waking up feeling like I have a weight on my chest and sometimes feel I'm obsessing. Then I read up on the days nonsense, I pop on here and remind myself what's at stake and the weight lifts off and my anger/hurt/determination kicks in and I know that I will fight this harmful ideology to the bitter end.

Dammit it should say “have a grudging admiration” not “admire”

Talk to people IRL not Facebook ( yeah. Tricky now)

It's easier for you to spot their interests, are they sporty for example , and it's easier for them to understand your emotions which can influence thier empathy, which means making it personal to you

Oh, and yes, it's embarrassing that our natural allies, the left and far left (radical feminist vegan types who you'd think would be on our side) have abandoned any pretence at feminist views in order to serve the patriarchy, and now our only allies are ultra far right extremists. That's enough on it's own to knock the wind out of me.

I do, and I think that's part of self-reflection and I know what I think, IYSWIM. I sometimes think if governments and institutions are going along with this, is it me who's misunderstood? But this makes me think it all through (for the umpteenth time) and come back to the same views. The transing of young people via nothing more than stereotypes, the damage done to healthy bodies, the tragic stries of detransitioners, the situation in prisons, and most recently the stories on the anonymous website for academics to tell their stories, reinforce that this is a scary orwellian/mccarthyist situation and we are all in danger. Dissenters are needed now, for anyone who needs to to turn to, and for when it all comes out in the wash - which I very much think it will.

TRAs and trans ideology framing anyone questioning it as evil trans-haters is part of how it works. You have to be strong-minded and hold onto your critical thought capacity to not be bullied down by it. But being able to question your position is part of critical thought.

Momentarily.

Then I remember I have a tween DD and over my dead body is she going to have to put up with adult male bodies in her single sex spaces. And also for my teen DS, for him to realise that some of these gender stereotypes are from the 1950's and we've moved on a bit since then.

Thanks for starting this thread OP. I think it's really important to question your position and reflect on the reasons why you hold a certain view. Likewise, whenever you read an article it's important to always take a step back and think about who wrote it and the perspective they are coming from. Basic stuff I know, yet so many TRA seem devoid of such critical thinking skills. One of the most frustrating aspects I find is the lack of robust arguments they offer. It's tedious to simply read 'what a TERF!' as though that's some sort of argument.

It's been quite helpful to have this thread linked to Twitter as it's given me the chance to read some of the comments. The overarching opinion seems to be 'take the hint, if you think differently to your friends and family, then you are wrong'. Funnily enough I left that sort of dogmatic group think at school when I learnt to think for myself. As it happens friends and family do agree with me on this issue, but even if they didn't I'm sure I'd be able to continue thinking for myself rather than rejecting my beliefs and adopting theirs without question.

Like this CallforHecate?

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse 😂 wowsers. Impressive use of fonts!

I do find it ironic that TRA who have ensured that anyone speaking publicly on this issue who doesn’t believe TWAW gets piled on/threatened/sacked/advised/doxxed/banned to the point where only the privileged few who are unsackable or independently wealthy can speak out

Then use it as a “gotcha”
“Aha look no else agrees with you”

I wouldn’t be proud of that myself, if they are on the side of the angels why not allow full free and Frank discussion? Surely the power of their logical arguments would carry the day right?

CallforHecate sadly I can't claim any credit, I found it on Facebook.

It's reason why they are so fond of no debate, Biscuits because when questioned the arguments tend to fall apart.

'Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise' is a saying I have taped over my desk.

(WShakespeare, Troilus & Cressida)

I don’t position myself anywhere aside from my own beliefs. I think there is a mental health crisis in young people and I think identity politics sits alongside a need to belong. We used to have real life communities, now we have online communities. Young people have found their tribe,

It used to be Mods and Rockers in my parents generation, then Punk, we had New Romantics, Grunge, Indie and Goth. Parents used to be shocked by raucous music, piercings and tattoos. They used to be shocked by children coming out as gay. Now we’ve upped the anti and children are trapped in the wrong bodies. Honestly I just roll my eyes. It’s another fad.

There was a very interesting Triggernometry interview I watched with Zuby where he discussed BLM and the pendulum swing. I think he got it exactly right. The pendulum was swung one way for a long time and now it needs to swing the other way to eventually rest in the middle. So I’m happy to watch the whole thing play out and I feel in the end both sides will find a middle point where neither are completely happy but when there is compromise that is always the case.

I think it depends on how far along one is on this particular critical journey...for me there is no room left for any meaningful doubt on this. I have done years and years of wrestling with this and the many related issues and as I said previously, I have the courage of my hard-earned convictions.

Deathgrip When I spend time on MN or Twitter I can see the stressful echo chamber where all trans people and allies want nothing more than total capitulation, and where GC women are kicking off about any tiny thing tangentially related to gender / sex.

Do you see these as comparable? One side wants total capitulation and you perceive the other to over-sensitive to triggers?

Do you sometimes wonder if the 'over-sensitivity' is over-sensitive or people correctly anticipating an implication that you haven't seen as yet?

I wasn't here but apparently before the 2004 GRA some of the women on the precursor to FWR predicted what was coming and the logical outcome of that - and people thought they were over-sensitive at best and deluded and beyond at worst.

Oh and one other thing, while I’m sounding off. The absolute lack of support from leftwing men on this issue is sad but completely unsurprising given their history over the decades of telling leftwing women to sit down, shut up and get with achieving whatever the latest important issue for leftwing men is. Leftwing men are not exempt from misogyny and despite their awareness of lots of other forms of structural privilege they are often blind to their own when it comes to sex-based inequalities. So no, the fact that a lot of leftwing men are wrong on this issue does not give me pause for thought. They’ve let us down with a lack of solidarity on many issues in the past. It is entirely to be expected unfortunately.

the Right generally prefers to support traditional gender roles while the Left wants to disrupt/get rid of them

Left and Right are essentially economic viewpoints. Moral issues are on a different axis and when you look at when important pieces of legislation was passed it's a mix of left and right governments, e.g.the slave trade was abolished by a Tory government and slavery was abolished by a Whig government. Women initially got the vote during a Coalition government, and the franchise was equalised between men and women under a Conservative government. Homosexuality was decriminalised by a Labour government and gay marriage was legalised by a Conservative government.

We should not assume that left leaning men all support women's rights, history shows we have been let down by them repeatedly over the last two centuries.

@CallforHecate

Oh and one other thing, while I’m sounding off. The absolute lack of support from leftwing men on this issue is sad but completely unsurprising given their history over the decades of telling leftwing women to sit down, shut up and get with achieving whatever the latest important issue for leftwing men is. Leftwing men are not exempt from misogyny and despite their awareness of lots of other forms of structural privilege they are often blind to their own when it comes to sex-based inequalities. So no, the fact that a lot of leftwing men are wrong on this issue does not give me pause for thought. They’ve let us down with a lack of solidarity on many issues in the past. It is entirely to be expected unfortunately.

Yes.