Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

Nah. We good. Seen enough of disingenuous Jamie and their personal promo vids to know manipulative fibs when we see them.
Women and girls matter, and deserve rights and protections, and the sanitised pop cheery youtube influencers in the world aren't going to change the reality of rapists in women's prisons, male people in women's sporting categories, and lesbians being told they have a genital fetish.
But nice try, I guess.

Although, I have to say I admire the chutzpah of mentioning studies which show transitioning doesn't improve mental health, and then dismissing that result by saying it's only because the transitioned people aren't dead. I mean, wow. That's more brassnecked spin than Dominic Cummings. But, I must say, Jamie, I've always liked the chair.

[quote uselessthrowaway]OP: you are correct in thinking that transphobic views are harmful. You are also correct in that the issue of allowing trans people into the spaces that align with their gender causes harm to women. To be more specific, NOT doing this puts trans women just as real as others in danger.

It's obvious that you are recognizing that you are on the wrong side of this moral argument. You yourself stated that being transphobic is morally equivalent to being racist. You recognize that these views equate to workplace discrimination that can and will get you fired. You obviously understand the harmful implications of your actions. And yet you keep saying that you know you're right, without any reasoning or justification.

The existence of trans people has been proven by science. There are dozens of studies that show that transitioning for dysphoric folks drastically improves mental health*.

*(these studies are often [sometimes willfully] misinterpreted by people with transphobic views because on the surface it appears to make mental health worse, but when this happens it isn't taken into account that yes, you're much more likely to have poor mental health when you are alive and breathing than when you're six feet under)

I'm not going to say 'you're the baddies'. I don't believe that. You, along with the rest of the people on this thread, are misguided and have been sucked into a transphobic echo chamber. You can break out of it. You don't have to live a life dedicated to the hatred of a marginalized group. I genuinely believe you are capable of learning from this and understanding that none of the things you believe now will define the rest of your life.

If you have time, please watch . It makes a few excellent points about your post.

I really hope you can let go of your hate. Wishing you the best!!

I don’t think history will be kind to those who are currently recommending sterilising children and freezing their natural sex hormone development at 10-11 year old level.

@FloralBunting

Although, I have to say I admire the chutzpah of mentioning studies which show transitioning doesn't improve mental health, and then dismissing that result by saying it's only because the transitioned people aren't dead. I mean, wow. That's more brassnecked spin than Dominic Cummings. But, I must say, Jamie, I've always liked the chair.

The research is pretty unquestionable, talk to 97-99% of trans people and they will say similar things. I've had cisgender ppl tell me NOT to come off the hormones (I did once because non of us want to be trans and it was an absolute disaster and affected my career)

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

OP,

I don't know. Perhaps you're one of the GCs that I meet where I know its not about hate of trans people, but they are not common. Most of the time it's seething hate and the 'concern' about issues is a flimsy cover.

I mean hell, if you say we need better prison assessments so that Karen Whites and Tara Hudsons never happen again, I'll gladly agree. If you say we need to research every sport to check that its fair that TW participate, I'll be standing with you. If you tell me we need to assess like mad before we give PBs to kid, I'll be there.

It's never that tho with GCs...every day it's "you're a man", "male", "pervert", "fetish", "paedo", "TiM", "womanface" etc etc Go watch Posie Parker's latest and see how she talks about Debbie Hayton (who is 'onside' w/ you) and that is what we face every day from you.

@FloralBunting

Although, I have to say I admire the chutzpah of mentioning studies which show transitioning doesn't improve mental health, and then dismissing that result by saying it's only because the transitioned people aren't dead. I mean, wow. That's more brassnecked spin than Dominic Cummings. But, I must say, Jamie, I've always liked the chair.

The research is pretty unquestionable, talk to 97-99% of trans people and they will say similar things. I've had cisgender ppl tell me NOT to come off the hormones (I did once because non of us want to be trans and it was an absolute disaster and affected my career)

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

OP,

I don't know. Perhaps you're one of the GCs that I meet where I know its not about hate of trans people, but they are not common. Most of the time it's seething hate and the 'concern' about issues is a flimsy cover.

I mean hell, if you say we need better prison assessments so that Karen Whites and Tara Hudsons never happen again, I'll gladly agree. If you say we need to research every sport to check that its fair that TW participate, I'll be standing with you. If you tell me we need to assess like mad before we give PBs to kid, I'll be there.

It's never that tho with GCs...every day it's "you're a man", "male", "pervert", "fetish", "paedo", "TiM", "womanface" etc etc Go watch Posie Parker's latest and see how she talks about Debbie Hayton (who is 'onside' w/ you) and that is what we face every day from you.

Oops, double returned

Anyway, so it's all so routine from you guys that it's gotten kinda boring. I celebrate when you get out of the pit, but usually I just block you whenever you jump into my mentions. For the longest time I did try to talk to you, but it's nearly never in good faith - ya'll just wanna try and displace your own stuff onto me and it's pointless.

Yes because all GC are the same, just like all trans are the same? No.

The problem is that nobody listens in the middle and the extremes are immovable. What you propose seems like a reasonable starting point, yes. Plus, as contentious as it seems to many transwomen, third spaces are needed. Not in every circumstance, but definitely rape crisis, refuges, anywhere naked.

Many GC are happy for society to make space for transwomen, but that doesn't mean TWAW, or that our spaces should automatically be shared. Because no matter how unpopular the fact is, biological men are stronger and more violent than biological women. And there is evidence that being trans doesn't change these facts substantially, even if you wish with all your might.

Doctors carrying out lobotomies thought they were on the right side of history

Men stopping women from voting thought they were on the right side of history

The white government in South Africa thought they were entirely right to subjugate the black population

Many terrible things have been done by people who believed they were on the right side of history

Men are not women, there are only two sexes, biological reality doesn’t care about your feelings

Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out

It's never that tho with GCs...every day it's "you're a man", "male", "pervert", "fetish", "paedo", "TiM", "womanface" etc etc Go watch Posie Parker's latest and see how she talks about Debbie Hayton (who is 'onside' w/ you) and that is what we face every day from you.

Do you even see how you are making others responsible for your own incoherence SecretTransTwitterEngineer?

Debbie Hayton calls themself male, a man. Debbie Hayton themself has said their transition is sexually driven.

What you're doing is so commonplace it's the very first rule of misogyny.

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

You agree men shouldn't be in women's sport and that male rapists and pedophiles shouldn't be in women's prisons. And simultaneously don't want women to have the words to describe that it in is actually happening.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

I would love to see how science has proven the existence of a social construct. That's amazing. Wow. Because being educated to degree level in physiology and biochemistry, I can absolutely guarantee that biological sex is definitely a thing.

Wow. You believe trans women are more important than biological women? Sorry but that is a male perspective. There are at least 2 separate protected characteristics to differentiate between the two groups.

I have no idea what you are qualified in, but it certainly isn't science or law.

It's like 90% of interactions with these people. They couldn't begin to understand where they are wrong, because this is the only time they venture out of the Twitter echo chamber, to plop some trite, easily rebutted nonsense, preferably in blog (Katie Montgomerie, Fox and Owl, CursedE) or YouTube video form (Jammi Dodger, Contrapoints) and run away without responding to any replies.

To be more specific, NOT doing this puts trans women just as real as others in danger.

Can we please see the statistics on this? And official crime statistics, not acecdotal evidence. Because, we see this posted all the time but never with a link to verify it.

I don’t doubt that males who identify as women feel unsafe. However, your post then crosses into misogyny territory because you put the onus on women to keep those males safe. Women are not human shields for unsafe males.

So, tell us again why any female should give over their need for safety, privacy and dignity for a male based on what that male wants?

And what number is good for you for the collateral damage of harm to women (females if you need me to be specific, we have had many posters try the ‘but they are women too’) . I’d say n+1 from your post.

There is a great petition by some transwomen for third spaces. How about you look that up and get campaigning for it rather than implying women are the baddies for wanting spaces away from all males.

Which other males should come into the female toilets to be safe? Gay males? elderly males? males who are very short?

The research is pretty unquestionable

No, it really isn't.

I mean hell, if you say we need better prison assessments so that Karen Whites and Tara Hudsons never happen again, I'll gladly agree. If you say we need to research every sport to check that its fair that TW participate, I'll be standing with you. If you tell me we need to assess like mad before we give PBs to kid, I'll be there.

Just to let you know, SecretTransTwitterEngineer, it's not about what you personally think is acceptable or otherwise, as what women do or say in support of their own rights does not depend on your personal approval. We don't expect your support. Just like TRAs don't run their political demands by me before they lobby Parliament.

How about you post the paragraph above on your Twitter account? Or even extend it by “I think the rape and death threats on JKR are reprehensible”.

Quite.

@SecretTransTwitterEngineer

Oops, double returned

Anyway, so it's all so routine from you guys that it's gotten kinda boring. I celebrate when you get out of the pit, but usually I just block you whenever you jump into my mentions. For the longest time I did try to talk to you, but it's nearly never in good faith - ya'll just wanna try and displace your own stuff onto me and it's pointless.

Do you have a secret MN block button then? Fantastic!!

I’d recommend using it then and hide all the inconvenient truths that get posted here. Must make threads very short but, hey ho!, block buttons create your very own echo chamber! Must make it hard to operate in the real world where you cannot block reality.

Or are you conflating MN with another social media platform. You know you are not on twitter, right?

But, I must say, Jamie, I've always liked the chair.

Now you've made me consider watching it to see the chair!

I don't think a yellow chair would be v relaxing personally. Won't it show up stains? And it looks suspiciously polyester. What is the consensus, is it man made it natural fibres? I cba clicking to watch vid.

If you say we need to research every sport to check that its fair that TW participate

It isn’t necessary.

Any sport split by sex can continue to be split by sex.

Aw, pissed away the chutzpah impression by reverting to a bog standard stats pulled out of your arse line. Nul points for that. And the 'I'm going to block you!' handwave? Wrong forum. Can't do that here. You own what you say and you have to read the responses.

Eresh, do watch it. Jamie is a masterclass in how to use links that look sciencey at the bottom of the screen that you know viewers won't read, but you can give a summary of what you think they say and claim you've provided proof of your ideas. Very much of the 'Bullshit with authority and you can convince' school.

I mean, it's a bit like watching someone who firmly believes human physiology is governed by balancing the humours, and part of me feels a lot of pity for Jamie, given that they are still suffering and having to go through more surgery to correct the cosmetic botch down below, and that at one point, it seemed like it would have been possible for Jamie to be a perfectly happy lesbian. Feminism is for Jamie as much as any of us.

But then I remember Jamie has a sweet little set up as an influencer of other young lesbians who are uncomfortable in their body and dealing with a homophobic culture and that Jamie decided to go all in with the homophobia and try and influence others to follow them, making it all look poppy and cheery and all the usual lies.

ya'll just wanna try and displace your own stuff onto me and it's pointless.

I'm sure it is pointless. After all, when you want something so bad it's hard to see reason eh? Those mean women who won't shut up and simply allow men to remove their rights and safeguards. And hitting that twitter block button allows you to remain in that echo chamber of validation. Always such a shock for people when they realise that the people in the real world are not in agreement with the echo chamber. Mumsnet doesn't have a block button btw, so not so easy to create that echo chamber for yourself here. obviously another option is to flounce though.

I’ve asked myself this many times. I talk to a friend about it a lot and he also questions it.

But I just always come to the conclusion it’s wrong in so, so many ways.

The only way that you can go along with the trans philosophy is to woefully ignore the truth - on a fundamental level.

It just isn’t true, and it’s incredibly damaging.

On the other hand, I’m so proud of the women of TERF island for standing up to this