Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

A woman in banking would never be allowed to dress that way.

I guess we can't know the rationale. I see it as 'May as we'll be hung for a sheep as a lamb' rather than mocking women. But you might be right for all I know.

@ThinkAboutItTomorrow

The number of people openly LGB has increased from 1.6% in 2014 to 2.7% in 2020. Are people jumping on a trend?

In 16-24 year olds it's ~8% in 65+ it's ~1%. Did they all grow out of it?

I'm sorry but I can't help but remember my mum asserting in the early '90's that being gay was 'an attention seeking trend'. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to hear similar tropes about trans.

I've ctrl+F'd 'attention seeking' and I think the only person saying that was the pro-trans person upthread?

FWIW I don't think most people who are trans (i.e. by saying they are trans) are "doing it for attention". I don't think most people think that that's a motivating factor.

I still have no idea if I'm trans myself, the NHS website suggests I fit the definition of non-binary but either way surely it's factual whether or not you are trans, as - unlike with one's sexuality - it's the act of claiming to be trans that means you are? Unless you think there's such a thing as falsely claiming to be trans when you're not?

NHS: Some may have female genitals and breasts but do not identify as a female or feel feminine.

Some people do not define themselves as having a "binary" identity. For them the concept of gender is not relevant to their identity.

They may use different terms, such as agender, gender diverse, gender non-conforming, to describe their identity. However, as a group, they are often called "non-binary".

I believe gender is a social construct and sex is the source of female oppression so I am GC but I wish we could make it clearer that we are fighting for women's safety not against trans rights.

Considering most threads about the topics now under Sex And Gender used to be quite focus to specific conflicts on the rights of females by other groups, this board split has seen a drift with more threads that are not about ideology than the rights. It has been particularly noticeable this past week.

Many regular posters on this board would happily restrict their posts to exactly as you say and we usually are very consistent in bringing threads back to discussing the issues at hand. Again, the conflicts of the rights of all females by other groups.

The post you have quoted is actually highlighting the huge increase in young females, mostly teenagers, who have sought to transition. This is particularly troubling for parents, such as myself, of teens. I am watching young teen lesbians declare that they are trans in groups within months. This phenomena has been recorded in many countries and some countries such as some Scandanavian countries are trying to work out why rather than simply imply that it is 'natural'. That an increase of around 4000% for teenage females specifically that is not reflected in older female age groups is of major concern.

If you are interested, you might want to look up Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

Why is this of concern to women on this board? Because these are children and particularly young females. We are feminists, but many of us are also parents to these young females.

We want these young females to have the very best health care and to have thorough investigation and mental health treatment before undergoing the significantly higher risk of major life limiting, if not life shortening, medical treatments. The risks are higher for females than males. Removing ovaries at a very young age due to Testosterone treatment can mean a significantly higher risk of dementia and even worse, as early as in their 40s. This is just one.

So, our concern with these figures is not 'transphobic'. Our concern is that it should be researched thoroughly. Something the NHS services here in the UK have not even kept records about. The research has failed young transitioners of all sexes. It has suffered through, 'no debate'.

[quote Keepemguessing]some of the snide mockery of people who are fluid about gender (eg Pip) shocks me

I see Pips Bunce as mocking womanhood.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/gender-fluid-exec-named-on-list-of-top-100-women-in-business-a3942896.html[/quote]
I also see Pips Bunce as mocking womenhood, wmen and also, taking the piss.

Look at his Linkedin profile shot:

a) man one, nice professional head shot
b) woman one - full body shot, including short skirt and fishnets - because being a woman at work, is all about body, sex, clothes and shoes right?
c) even though this is clearly inappropriate it's ok for him to put his (irrelevant to his job) fetish on show in front of colleagues, even though most of them range from disinterested to offended
d) if I did either of b) or c), as an actual woman, I would have my career limited and ultimately be managed out - not to mention have everyone bitching and talking about me behind my back.
e) if I dressed like that and used it as my linked in profile I would not get interviews and would get even more creepy messages from random men.

Piss. take.

No, never, but I can understand those GC that occasionally do.

More so I would be less amazed if the uber woke don't.

An example of the big difference between the two sides of this argument would be if Gender Critical activists were hunting down transactivists online to ruin their lives in any way they could, including destroying their careers and cheering if they lose their homes, even when they have kids as I have seen the lefts mob do on plenty of occasions.
If they don't lie in the wee small hours in bed and occasionally think "Was I right to do that" then they must be genuinely evil.

Marion Millar case has been delayed

Nothing you described makes you the "baddie" in any way.

Thanks all. I've been surprised to see comments on my thread which I started a few months ago after having a very careful conversation with the best friend I mentioned in my original post.

Someone very early on suggested that worrying about who did or didn't agree with you (I referenced some Republicans in my OP) was juvenile and cowardly and whilst I wasnt thrilled at the time, I thought about it and came to the conclusion that they were probably right. This issue does mean strange bedfellows, for someone left leaning like me. But a desire to "be on the right side" is what has led to this mess - a rush to help a group with a potentially protected characteristic without any concern about what that means for women and children.

Since my original post I'm even more peaked. I've told my boss that pronouns are my Rubicon (she agrees), I've changed forms at work (where I have some control) to say "sex" and not "gender" and I've donated to as many Keira/Maya/Alison/Maria type fundraisers as I can. It's not much but it does feel like the tide is turning slightly; definitely not the baddies.

@Sonarl, I agree re Pips Bunce. I work in a senior role in a similar field and theres no way I'd get away with dressing like that at work.

Here’s why I don’t worry if I am a baddie. It’s a Guardian article about women dying because of maternity care in the pandemic. It’s about Nepal, so the Guardian is able to call pregnant women ‘women’ in this context without apologetic references to diverse gender identities. Apparently, poor foreign women don’t have gender identities whereas all uterus-bearers in the UK have preferred pronouns.
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jul/15/nepal-sees-huge-rise-in-maternal-deaths-as-covid-keeps-women-at-home?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Menstrual - that's brilliant. I'm so pleased. It is hard to move away from automatically agreeing with the ostensibly "progressive" stance (even though it's absolutely not). Little by little.

LukewarmCustard

Here’s why I don’t worry if I am a baddie. It’s a Guardian article about women dying because of maternity care in the pandemic. It’s about Nepal, so the Guardian is able to call pregnant women ‘women’ in this context without apologetic references to diverse gender identities. Apparently, poor foreign women don’t have gender identities whereas all uterus-bearers in the UK have preferred pronouns.

Mic drop 🎤

“Trans guy reacts” to this thread video on YouTube:

Funny isn't it how, despite being so used to this, I was expecting to see a male YouTuber because you said "guy".

Anyway, that was more tedious than I expected, I thought they were going to comment on the whole thread, not just the OP.

I find that person tedious and smug in general so I will give that a swerve.

Seriously tedious, content not helped by general tone of smug disappointment. Wonder why they didn’t come onto the thread they found and make their arguments here?

They've been ALL over these boards/threads trying to promote themselves recently.

Won't watch their video. I honestly have a toilet to go clean. I'd rather do that.

All I got out of that is which earbuds to avoid. (Those sorts of adverts make me think of this video . If only they were half as entertaining.)

I'm always receptive to thoughtful, evidenced critiques. No surprise, that didn't come close. Just more meat for the base.

Yes, I do and today I’m feeling particularly emotional (PMS though )
I try to not talk about it too much, DP thinks I’m obsessed because I bought Helen Joyce book. I told him I wanted to support the author as she was being harassed online
But also I’ve noticed my DS best friends mum has been off with me. I checked and she’s removed me from SM. I’m not too bothered for myself, I’ve not shared anything on SM that is untrue. I’m worried she’ll avoid our boys spending time together and with them both having ASD and struggling to make friends it makes me feel like it’s my fault

Who is that guy? weird to reply by a video rather than directly.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I find that person tedious and smug in general so I will give that a swerve.

Sums it up perfectly

Sonarl

I take it that person read a pic of the post since the pic was taken on the day OP started the thread. From the first minute or so, it seems they have not visited the site but label it with all the terms we see often ‘phobic’ ‘echo chamber’ etc.

So, whoever they are won’t be actually checking for themselves as they have a preconceived and prejudiced notion about this board from other’s opinions. A bit like snek really.

Who posted that we should be ‘educated’ by this person’s videos.

Who doesn’t do any depth of investigation before making assertions based on other people’s opinions not their own critical thinking.

A bit like snek really.

Because visiting a website and reading others opinions that might challenge your own is unsafe it seems.

What was an echo chamber again? (Rhetorical)

Tbf I switched it off after 2 seconds too, as I am confident I wouldn't learn anything and the smug tone would just annoy me on my day off. I did watch the full ad before it though whcing I never do - it was for a manscaping set, did anyone else get that too? I'm sorely tempted to get one for DP.

OP: you are correct in thinking that transphobic views are harmful. You are also correct in that the issue of allowing trans people into the spaces that align with their gender causes harm to women. To be more specific, NOT doing this puts trans women just as real as others in danger.

It's obvious that you are recognizing that you are on the wrong side of this moral argument. You yourself stated that being transphobic is morally equivalent to being racist. You recognize that these views equate to workplace discrimination that can and will get you fired. You obviously understand the harmful implications of your actions. And yet you keep saying that you know you're right, without any reasoning or justification.

The existence of trans people has been proven by science. There are dozens of studies that show that transitioning for dysphoric folks drastically improves mental health*.

*(these studies are often [sometimes willfully] misinterpreted by people with transphobic views because on the surface it appears to make mental health worse, but when this happens it isn't taken into account that yes, you're much more likely to have poor mental health when you are alive and breathing than when you're six feet under)

I'm not going to say 'you're the baddies'. I don't believe that. You, along with the rest of the people on this thread, are misguided and have been sucked into a transphobic echo chamber. You can break out of it. You don't have to live a life dedicated to the hatred of a marginalized group. I genuinely believe you are capable of learning from this and understanding that none of the things you believe now will define the rest of your life.

If you have time, please watch . It makes a few excellent points about your post.

I really hope you can let go of your hate. Wishing you the best!!