Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies" moment?*

No.

Does anyone ever have a - are we the baddies moment?

No.

Does anyone ever have a - are we the baddies moment?

Just surfing the top threads here..... a paper presented on holding a knife to a non compliant woman's throat and demanding to know if she's scared and/or turned on.... a struck off dr in court regarding supply of drugs to children while getting around a court order intended to protect children.... a woman attacked with a knife at Hyde Park Corner possibly because of wearing an offensive t shirt.... an article written by a woman sexually assaulted, harassed and intimidated by a TW she had been locked into prison with.....

No.

That's really not something I get confused about.

Of course I have those moments. I think it's healthy to second guess your opinions too.

But then I remember gender ideology requires mutilating and sterilising gay and / or autistic children. And that women getting raped is considered an acceptable price to pay to validate gender ideology.

I'll be able to look my daughter in the eye when she asks me what i did about this. That's what I measure myself against.

*Yes, I do need to question and re-evaluate.
Especially when some things that are said echo intolerance of homosexuality.

But questioning and re-evaluating is a healthy and necessary thing to do.

And I do think some people on these boards can occasionally be transphobic and go too far sometimes, probably including myself.

I'm uncomfortable with that so I will keep an eye out for it.*

Thanks for posting this @Siblingquandary, I feel similarly. I do try and keep a watchful eye on where I think the line of transphobia and intolerance is. For instance, the GC line we often see is 'wear what you like, call yourself what you like, if you're an adult then go right ahead, just don't try and endanger women's rights and safety'. Refusal to use chosen names and pronouns, which I see a lot, seems to me to contradict that, even though I understand the reasons for it. I've decided not to partake in that.

I also tend to think that there's no problem, in principle, with socially treating fully surgically-transitioned trans women as women for most purposes. I realise that opens an ethical and practical can of worms, but I do think that the insistence that people who have committed to living as the opposite gender and taken extraordinary medical steps to do so should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds with their biological sex is going too far.

So no, overall, I don't think we're the baddies, but I try and remain conscious of not being swept up into rhetorical positions I don't actually agree with.

A sensible response @QuimReaper and one I echo. I am very tolerant of people's difference and I work hard to remember my opposition is not to difference, but to specific issues surrounding single sex spaces, protection of children, and safeguarding of the vulnerable.

I have had to have a break and give my head a wobble on a couple of occasions to stay the right side of what I consider acceptable.

Everyone should always engage their brain on these topics. I've said before, this is not a religion with a creed. You don't have to sign up to a list of tenets. Own it for the things you have actually thought about yourself, because otherwise, you really aren't any different from the clapping seals on Twitter excusing threats.
And obviously, never excuse or make threats. No brainer, that one.

I do think that the insistence that people who have committed to living as the opposite gender and taken extraordinary medical steps to do so should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds with their biological sex is going too far.

It is good to establish your own boundaries as long as you realise that others who disagree with you have just as much right to their boundaries.

And that if there are vulnerable women who need, or even want, to have facilities without a male who has had surgical modifications to their body that is still male, you should not take away their rights to have those spaces.

Because if a male says they need them, why exactly does their voice have priority over a female who says they need them?

@FloralBunting

Everyone should always engage their brain on these topics. I've said before, this is not a religion with a creed. You don't have to sign up to a list of tenets. Own it for the things you have actually thought about yourself, because otherwise, you really aren't any different from the clapping seals on Twitter excusing threats. And obviously, never excuse or make threats. No brainer, that one.

Absolutely.

Which is why there is so often so much disagreement among gc women, or women who are concerned about gender ideology.

The only thing that should be sacrosanct, I think, is freedom to discuss one's rights without fear of being threatened. The rest of it - we need to talk.

Long live diversity of opinion.

@Helleofabore

I do think that the insistence that people who have committed to living as the opposite gender and taken extraordinary medical steps to do so should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds with their biological sex is going too far.

It is good to establish your own boundaries as long as you realise that others who disagree with you have just as much right to their boundaries.

And that if there are vulnerable women who need, or even want, to have facilities without a male who has had surgical modifications to their body that is still male, you should not take away their rights to have those spaces.

Because if a male says they need them, why exactly does their voice have priority over a female who says they need them?

This. Absolutely this.

If there is one woman who does not consent and is excluded by including a male person into a female only space regardless of degree of modifications - then my answer has to be no too.

I agree, we should remain aware of not blurring the boundaries into statements that can come across as predjudicial. However, everyone has their own bottem line, whether its male bodied people in womens sports or MBP in womens private/safe spaces. One of my bugbears though is language - I really resent having constraints on using language which has been used to define one half of the human species for millennia because a few people may feel upset. There have been statements on here which I have had difficulty with on occasion, including an occasional pile on when males appear to be trying to be allies. I realise some of these people are prize bullshitters but I dont think they all are and I dont have a problem with genuine decent men being allies of feminists., though I dont think the conversation should then be all about them either.

@Helleofabore Yes, I agree with everyone having their own boundaries. It's a really difficult issue, and for me, I think (practical implications aside) that accepting fully-transitioned people into single-sex spaces is a fair compromise between the risk to women and compassion for the very rare transsexuals (and one which, as GC feminists often point out, was a fairy harmonious modus vivendi for decades until the whole thing went bananas), but I also think women would be well within their rights to object.

I was actually listening to Buck Angel on Trggernometry yesterday who was saying he still has to visit the gynaecologist etc., and was pondering that it might make many women extremely uncomfortable to have such a convincing bearded trans man on a ward if he had to have some kind of specialist treatment.

Yes, you are the baddies. You've made a literal hobby out of villifying an oppressed minority group, you are either complicit or actively involved in fearmongering, spreading falsehoods and misinformation (even if you don't personally recognise it as such because you've fallen down the rabbithole and into an echo chamber), and in campaigning to roll back the small gains they've made in equality and recognition. Your actions make life materially harder and more hostile for trans people. You are the bigots. You're the ones succumbing to your worst impulses and unexamined prejudices. You seek out only information that confirms your biases and come running to mumsnet for reassurance from people who do the same whenever anything makes you doubt yourself. History will look back on you in the same way it looks back on people who fearmongered about the gays and opposed LGB equality. Your friends and family likely think you're obsessed and bonkers, possibly even wondering how the person they love can possibly be so blinkered and hateful. With some of them, your relationship could be permanently destroyed. And it's not because of them, it's because of you. You are absolutely, unequivocally the baddie. Check your hat, because it's probably got a skull on it.

BlueberryCheezecake

Incorrect. But it's always good to play the victim right. Without any consideration for women and children. Best get your eyesight checked and take a close look at your own hat. It's looking worn out with all those lies and misrepresentation. ☺️

My hat is a very jaunty feminist pirate hat, so yes.
The rest of that post was shite, though.

Blimey Cheezecake thats a rather large dose of hyperbole. Are you always this sure about everything.

We are baddies because we don’t agree with women being locked in prison cells with rapists.

You are the goodies because you think rapists should have access to rape victims.

That’s what you goodies have encouraged and you think you’re in the right.

Some would see that as very disturbing.

Blimey Cheezecake thats a rather large dose of hyperbole. Are you always this sure about everything.

Maybe they're a little angsty as they need to pee. After all, that's what it's all about right. 🤔

Oh for pete's sake.

You've made a literal hobby out of villifying an oppressed minority group,

Standing up for women

you are either complicit or actively involved in fearmongering, spreading falsehoods and misinformation

sharing facts

and in campaigning to roll back the small gains they've made in equality and recognition.

Because those gains were taken by rolling back the small gains women had made in equality and recognition.

Your actions make life materially harder and more hostile for trans people.

Our actions being to point out and stand up against the making of life materially harder and considerably more hostile for women, and it's far worse and more overtly and actually violent for them

You are the bigots.

You might want to check your understanding of that word, and who is unable to cope with other views.

You're the ones succumbing to your worst impulses and unexamined prejudices.

And yet it isn't GC women who are describing sexual fantasies of knifing people, waving swords and barbed wire wrapped bats and threatening to rape and kerb stomp......

History will look back on you in the same way it looks back on people who fearmongered about the gays and opposed LGB equality.

I'm LGB. I fought against section 28. This is utter bollocks. It is not the same. Gay rights wanted to take nothing from anyone else.

Your friends and family likely think you're obsessed and bonkers

No, they mostly agree and are horrified at what is happening to women in prisons, refuges, rape crisis centres, what's being said to women who dare to mention women's rights, pipe bomb threats, yada yada... their response is mostly 'how the fuck did this happen?' rather than agreement with it.

Check your hat, because it's probably got a skull on it.

Can we try to at least pretend we're all grown ups?

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Is this misinformation @BlueberryCheezecake?

This has been in the Equality Act since 1975.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Yes, you are the baddies. You've made a literal hobby out of villifying an oppressed minority group, you are either complicit or actively involved in fearmongering, spreading falsehoods and misinformation (even if you don't personally recognise it as such because you've fallen down the rabbithole and into an echo chamber), and in campaigning to roll back the small gains they've made in equality and recognition. Your actions make life materially harder and more hostile for trans people. You are the bigots. You're the ones succumbing to your worst impulses and unexamined prejudices. You seek out only information that confirms your biases and come running to mumsnet for reassurance from people who do the same whenever anything makes you doubt yourself. History will look back on you in the same way it looks back on people who fearmongered about the gays and opposed LGB equality. Your friends and family likely think you're obsessed and bonkers, possibly even wondering how the person they love can possibly be so blinkered and hateful. With some of them, your relationship could be permanently destroyed. And it's not because of them, it's because of you. You are absolutely, unequivocally the baddie. Check your hat, because it's probably got a skull on it.

Any evidence for that pile of crap?

Your friends and family likely think you're obsessed and bonkers

Obsessed? Maybe a bit.

They largely thought the things being done in the name of trans rights were the bonkers bit, to the extent that they didn't believe those things were happening.

Right up until a much loved young relative had an unnecessary mastectomy in pursuit of an ideal.

I do spend my life agonising over weather Im doing the right thing and what people think of me.
On this issue tho, never not for a second have I thought the GC position is either wrong factually, practically or morraly, not for one second.
Its so overwhelmingly obvious from any angle that its the one thing I am sure about.

BlueberryCheezecake. Delightful as usual!

You've made a literal hobby out of villifying an oppressed minority group, you are either complicit or actively involved in fearmongering, spreading falsehoods and misinformation (even if you don't personally recognise it as such because you've fallen down the rabbithole and into an echo chamber), and in campaigning to roll back the small gains they've made in equality and recognition.

Echo chambers, eh? I think you actually need to read more threads on this board. You see, we do actually read extensively and we read the source material. We do not actually rely on a 'safe' dissemination by a self appointed 'though leader' usually acquiring 'influencer' status on a social media platform.

And I would be really wary of stating that people on this board are spreading falsehoods and misinformation. Let's see:

• who is telling everyone that sex is not binary, like there are more than two sexes?
• who is telling everyone that sex can be changed and that if a person simply believes that they are of the other sex, they are to be believed and accommodated for all intents and purposes?
• who is stating that hormones used to block puberty are completely reversible?
• who is stating that males can fairly compete against females?

Shall I go on? I am pretty sure that anyone reading this thread will understand that there are many, many more examples of completely unevidenced claims that are being made and they are not be the people on this board.

I am obsessed, well probably facinated is a better description.

I never thought I get to actually see mass hysteria, cult grooming, a blatent try for reasserting total male dominance, female bullying through submission, instititional capture, everything to do with this moment facinates me.

I never though Id get to see something like this playing out through society.