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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

662 replies

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 27/02/2021 21:39

  • it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

OP posts:
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Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 14/07/2021 23:12

OP are you DMH17? it's a very similar writing style indeed.

You got a bit lost in translation answering your own questions, I've never heard of Rand Paul, a Marjorie Taylor Greene, or a Greg Abbott. I'm assuming they are very Right wing but GC views in the UK come from across a wide political spectrum, many from the Leftwing.

user888 · 14/07/2021 23:19

I think anybody with mature self-awareness and an ounce of empathy worries about being wrong, but it really doesn't take a whole lot of reading and critical thinking to see through TRA arguments. What's frustrating, in thread after thread here, is watching them get caught in a loop, like the spinning ball of death on a computer.

RickiTarr · 14/07/2021 23:51

@N4ish

Sometimes I do question my beliefs on this issue but that’s not a bad thing. Janice Turner described how holding GC views puts you outside your political tribe and I totally agree with that.

I’m straight down the line left wing on every issue bar this one and sometimes seeing myself aligned with people like Liz Truss does feel very, very strange.

Yes it’s immensely jarring but strange times make strange bedfellows.
RickiTarr · 14/07/2021 23:55

I don't understand why people fighting for trans rights (which is a totally fair and right thing to fight for) don't denounce rapists and violent men who suddenly declare themselves trans.

They can’t because of their Self ID doctrine. Which is what has caused the whole dispute. If we went back to medically diagnosed and treated transsexualism and dysphoria, they wouldn’t have to accept the rapists and violent men under their umbrella and we wouldn’t have an issue.

Unfortunately, a faction within the TRA camp are pursuing Self ID for a reason.

Helleofabore · 15/07/2021 06:43

allDMH17

So you recognize that your views on trans people and those who are gender non-conforming people align with people who are radically right-leaning and conservative and these are people you would disagree with on any other perspective except for this one.

I am so tired of seeing this hyperbolic, infantile trope.

Those who deploy it seem to get their rhetoric from social media where that trope is rolled out constantly. I am sure it sounds much better there than it does in real life where people can answer in more than constrained character numbers.

Shall we start listing all the people that are aligned with progressing the rights for male to access those rights set aside for females to counter sexist discrimination due to having sexed bodies?

Shall we start with those who really progressed queer theory? Foucault who actively fought for and was part of the group that successfully had the age of consent lowered in France? I’d go look them up if you have not seen the recent news from France on the topic.

Shall we post the quotes about females from males who are considered prominent in activism now, and these are quotes from after they have transitioned? They are delightful insights into how these people really feel about females.

Shall we discuss one of Diva’s 2020 top 100 lesbians who is a male who campaigns for the legalisation of extreme porn and the lowering of the legal age of porn actors? Who also stated that it was female’s eggshell skulls that were the issue that men were being charged with murdering their wives? Who also stated that the reason females were not dying of covid in numbers as high as males was because males were out there working?

Shall we discuss the trans ‘influencers’ who mocked female toilet habits and sounds earlier this year? Apparently, it is not just about wanting to pee. Because they now can have a great laugh about the sounds female’s peeing makes. At least one of them was also heavily involved in the sexual harassment of a female via Twitter.

We can discuss the activist group who let smoke bombs off in Grenfell to intimidate women meeting to discuss the implications of policies on women’s rights? The violence outside other meeting venues?

Are you happy with the activities of other aligned groups such as ANTIFA? Totally comfortable with them?

We can certainly keep on going.

You tell us that our views are problematic because of the people who have similar views. It is a very narrow point of view because I doubt you would consider the same said about you and the people who share your views.

There are many issues and points of view that people can agree with, that align, while vehemently disagreeing on many others. That is part of being a mature person with nuanced thoughts.

Please stop using that ridiculous’you are aligned with’ crap. It is a very foolish person who cannot see the unassailable hypocrisy of that tactic.

TabbyStar · 15/07/2021 07:03

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

Because some of us recognise ourselves as the kids that did grow out of it; because we know kids now who say they are trans and it doesn't stack up; because detransitioners and research tell us this.

RickiTarr · 15/07/2021 07:05

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

I don’t know about choice etc, but it’s definitely an upwards trend.

Etorih · 15/07/2021 08:13

Where in the state I live in you could lose custody of your child for giving them gender-affirming care

Giving children puberty blockers / cross sex hormones / pushing them down the surgery path to destroy healthy breasts and genitals, making poor decisions for them that renders them infertile and a life long patient, is a bloody good reason why parents should lose custody of their child. It's child abuse. And needs to be treated as such.

Etorih · 15/07/2021 08:23

Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it.

Women's 800 metres, Olympics 2016. The first three winners had XY chromosomes.
Women don't stand a chance in their own sports. It's been going on a while now. And I do worry about it. As do many women. Don't tell me cheating women out of their rightful place is something not to worry about.

Etorih · 15/07/2021 08:33

Kicking transwomen out of women's spaces and forcing transmen into your spaces

No need to force transmen into women's spaces unless it's what they want. They can risk assess for themselves. It's men that are the danger not women. That's why we segregate by sex. It's not about keeping men safe from women. It's about protecting women from mens behaviour. Now men are seeking to break those boundaries down. Men go to great lengths to access the bodies of women and children. People like you enable and support that behaviour.

and putting transwomen in danger by forcing them into men's spaces?

Women are not a human shield for men. No matter how those men identify. If transwomen feel unsafe from other men than campaign for a third space. I don't see many of them doing this though. That's because for many, it's not about the space, but the women in it also, to validate their identity. Their validation is at the expense of women and children's safety. That's not good enough.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 15/07/2021 08:37

Not another attempt to guilt women out of our rights and boundaries. It seems to be the current TRA trend from what I've seen on social media. No. Women matter too.

Keepemguessing · 15/07/2021 09:36

and putting transwomen in danger by forcing them into men's spaces

Women had to fight for sex-segregated spaces, they weren't handed to us on a platter. TW can fight for their own spaces instead of using ours.

MishyJDI · 15/07/2021 09:45

@RickiTarr

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

I don’t know about choice etc, but it’s definitely an upwards trend.

Or it has always been at these levels - people now are just feeling more free to be able to express it.
Helleofabore · 15/07/2021 09:51

Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it. Where is the major crisis aside from the one you are whipping up without any real justifiable reason?

yeah... ok.

So, it is the old n+1 argument again isn't it.

It is only a few.... be kind and don't 'whip' up a major crisis about it.....

I guess seeing this, you really should admit that you just hate women. Because clearly girls and women having fair sporting events and safe ones are not something you care about at all as long as that special subset of males gets what they want.

For anyone else who is reading and haven't read the sports threads yet, this is a great place to start.

thecritic.co.uk/every-sport-is-male-sport/

And two reviews of already peer reviewed studies are :

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

The one from Harper et al draws similar conclusions to the first. Harper is a transwoman researcher. And has admitted that Laurel Hubbard's inclusion in the Olympics has given them pause. They were extremely uncomfortable defending that inclusion, particularly since their own study of 8 of their mates and their running times pre and post transition (sometimes a decade apart) was very influential in the OIC ruling.

So, is Harper transphobic?

Do these studies qualify as any real justifiable reason? Or what will it take?

On the contrary, with this evidence there is NO real justifiable reason for the inclusion of any male into the female categories of sport.

Next you will be saying that an able bodied person should be able to qualify for the Paralympics. Or that an adult should be able to compete with the Under 16s. Or that a 20 something in the prime of their fitness should be able to compete with the 80 year olds.

Your premise is flawed and you know it. Your intention is not to discuss but to aim that pointy finger of shame at women discussing the maintaining of the rights that they require to overcome the millennia of sexist discrimination they have faced and still face.

MishyJDI · 15/07/2021 09:52

@Etorih

Kicking transwomen out of women's spaces and forcing transmen into your spaces

No need to force transmen into women's spaces unless it's what they want. They can risk assess for themselves. It's men that are the danger not women. That's why we segregate by sex. It's not about keeping men safe from women. It's about protecting women from mens behaviour. Now men are seeking to break those boundaries down. Men go to great lengths to access the bodies of women and children. People like you enable and support that behaviour.

and putting transwomen in danger by forcing them into men's spaces?

Women are not a human shield for men. No matter how those men identify. If transwomen feel unsafe from other men than campaign for a third space. I don't see many of them doing this though. That's because for many, it's not about the space, but the women in it also, to validate their identity. Their validation is at the expense of women and children's safety. That's not good enough.

Fortunately the equalities act stands to stop the behaviour you are promoting to discriminate against trans people.

If you wish to do so, then win the ballot box, or show a legitimate purpose for excluding trans people as per the Equality Act.

It's a high hurdle, and isolated incidents when the majority of trans people simply are going about their business - most likely trying to avoid gender criticals, fear and bigotry - are not going to win the day.

So step on up, join a party, get elected, get a majority and change the stance of what has been in place since 2010, with very little issue.

The rest of us in the meantime, will focus on gender equality and ensuring equal pay and opportunity.

Helleofabore · 15/07/2021 09:55

Can you explain the reason for the completely disproportionate numbers of young females seeking to transition Mishy? The numbers are consistently higher in most countries and even up to 4000% increases for young females.

How do you explain that Mishy? You have been on these threads long enough.

How do you explain the lack of then corresponding disproportionality of males in the adult transitioner numbers?

Can you provide some evidenced studies that prove your assertion that it is now just because people now are just feeling more free to be able to express it.?

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 15/07/2021 10:28

Women do have a right to their own spaces in law in the UK Mishy, which I think will protect women and girls.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/17/gender-neutral-toilets-public-buildings-single-sex-uk-robert-jenrick/

PurpleHoodie · 15/07/2021 10:45

Women's 800 metres, Olympics 2016. The first three winners had XY chromosomes.
Women don't stand a chance in their own sports. It's been going on a while now. And I do worry about it. As do many women. Don't tell me cheating women out of their rightful place is something not to worry about.

Cheats.

PurpleHoodie · 15/07/2021 10:47

Women's 800 metres, Olympics 2016. The first three winners had XY chromosomes.

Cheats.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/07/2021 10:51

Fortunately the equalities act stands to stop the behaviour you are promoting to discriminate against trans people.

It doesn't actually cover access to the opposite sex's spaces. Single sex spaces are dealt with under the protected characteristic of sex, not gender reassignment. The process for relying on the exemption to create any kind of single sex space at all is the same whether you want to exclude all males or a subset.

PurpleHoodie · 15/07/2021 10:54

It doesn't actually cover access to the opposite sex's spaces. Single sex spaces are dealt with under the protected characteristic of sex, not gender reassignment.

Hence why dodgy groups - with dodgy motives - are pushing to get rid of the Protected Characteristic of Sex from the Equality Act.

They want rid of the single-sex exemptions.

(Along with the Protected Charactistics of Sexual Orientation, and Religion)

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 15/07/2021 11:12

@Helleofabore

Can you explain the reason for the completely disproportionate numbers of young females seeking to transition Mishy? The numbers are consistently higher in most countries and even up to 4000% increases for young females.

How do you explain that Mishy? You have been on these threads long enough.

How do you explain the lack of then corresponding disproportionality of males in the adult transitioner numbers?

Can you provide some evidenced studies that prove your assertion that it is now just because people now are just feeling more free to be able to express it.?

I don't think there's much doubt that changing social attitudes and acceptance will make transitioning easier & will help people who may otherwise have spent their lives being what they aren't be able to be themselves.

I'm not sure what the evidence base is that the higher numbers of people who are openly gay now vs in 1940 reflects legal and social shifts that make it acceptable (indeed less dangerous) to be gay rather than a trend.

And yes people may detransition but I know people who've been pretty fluid on their sexuality. People are bisexual, no one has a problem with that, yet some of the snide mockery of people who are fluid about gender (eg Pip) shocks me.

I believe gender is a social construct and sex is the source of female oppression so I am GC but I wish we could make it clearer that we are fighting for women's safety not against trans rights.

Arg, I know it's not that simple but I do worry about some of the things I read from GC. No it's not horrendous like the TRA death and rape threats but I don't agree with them on anything. It's harder to read stuff from people I do agree with on many things.

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 15/07/2021 11:33

The number of people openly LGB has increased from 1.6% in 2014 to 2.7% in 2020.
Are people jumping on a trend?

In 16-24 year olds it's ~8% in 65+ it's ~1%. Did they all grow out of it?

I'm sorry but I can't help but remember my mum asserting in the early '90's that being gay was 'an attention seeking trend'. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to hear similar tropes about trans.

Keepemguessing · 15/07/2021 11:38

some of the snide mockery of people who are fluid about gender (eg Pip) shocks me

I see Pips Bunce as mocking womanhood.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/gender-fluid-exec-named-on-list-of-top-100-women-in-business-a3942896.html

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 15/07/2021 11:51

[quote Keepemguessing]some of the snide mockery of people who are fluid about gender (eg Pip) shocks me

I see Pips Bunce as mocking womanhood.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/gender-fluid-exec-named-on-list-of-top-100-women-in-business-a3942896.html[/quote]
I don't think dressings has a woman in the macho, conservative world of investment banking is something you'd do for a laugh.

I also don't think Pip should be lauded as a female hero mind you.