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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

662 replies

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 27/02/2021 21:39

  • it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2021 22:16

Thanks @Ereshkigalangcleg for that link

You're very welcome. She's written some great stuff.

istandwithjk · 14/07/2021 20:55

This reply has been deleted

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RickiTarr · 14/07/2021 21:00

Never. It took me far too long to realise what was happening. I’m never going to back down. Not with children in the game.

Rhannion · 14/07/2021 21:27

No , I know we are in the right and will prevail. The tide is turning , it might be slow but is turning.

Siblingquandary · 14/07/2021 21:27

Yes, I do need to question and re-evaluate.
Especially when some things that are said echo intolerance of homosexuality.

But questioning and re-evaluating is a healthy and necessary thing to do.

And I do think some people on these boards can occasionally be transphobic and go too far sometimes, probably including myself.

I'm uncomfortable with that so I will keep an eye out for it.

DMH17 · 14/07/2021 21:34

"On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene."

So you recognize that your views on trans people and those who are gender non-conforming people align with people who are radically right-leaning and conservative and these are people you would disagree with on any other perspective except for this one. That ultimately says something. You don't want to be tarred with the same brush, but you insist on being tarred with the same brush. As far as the left in the US is concerned, where we are dealing with wave after wave of anti-trans and homophobic bills. Where in the state I live in you could lose custody of your child for giving them gender-affirming care. Where if you are a teacher you can lose your job if you do not out your students for being transgender. There is no way that the left would see you as anything else other than a Rand Paul, a Marjorie Taylor Greene, or a Greg Abbott.

"The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit)."

You are a hypocrite. Bring your whole self to work, so far so good huh? As long as you are not transgender right?

" US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here"

I find this, in particular, to be pretty interesting. So people who want to be nice about pronouns are easily led, attention seekers? Let's do something that has no impact on my life, but it will make my trans colleagues feel comfortable and accepted. You sound very schoolyard: if you do this thing that I don't like the sound of, but I don't want to do it and I don't know why I don't want to do it, it doesn't hurt me, but if you do it and it makes me look bad then you are an easily led attention seeker. And whatever name-calling nonsense you insist on doing. It's immature. And yeah that's definitely a MTG move so congrats.

"My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies."

What are these invisible stats? Who, where, what, why? I think it's insanely telling when someone throws stats into an argument without providing the information, the details, the research to support those stats. So here's the tea GRA EQUIA Literature Search 2019 - the stats that exist show that transwomen pose no threat to women in women's spaces. So you don't want to be compared to Marjorie and yet you'll use her tactics and talking points. Where is your research. Sounds like someone is being easily led here. By your logic trans women's safety is what is in jeopardy because you want to push them into men's spaces. I also promise you that you do not want transmen in your spaces.

Like what do you think you know? Trans women have been using women's spaces and competing in the Olympics before it became a blip on your radar? Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it. Where is the major crisis aside from the one you are whipping up without any real justifiable reason? The transphobia you are popping off on is such a recent phenomenon, you don't even seem to consider how long trans women have been in these spaces and it's just now you are getting worked up about it. All of it is built on lies and fear that you have allowed yourself to be led into by sitting in echo chambers where people constantly feed you the validation for your bigotry that you want to hear. Who is being led?

" I just can't see how we're going to stop it."

Kicking transwomen out of women's spaces and forcing transmen into your spaces and putting transwomen in danger by forcing them into men's spaces? It's funny how transphobes completely ignore transmen in their argument because they don't care about transmen in this discussion because if you have to make that a part of your argument then your argument becomes a house of cards. Look for pictures of big, burly, muscled, hairy transmen on google and ask yourself if that's who you want in your woman's spaces because that's what you are arguing for, that's what you want. If you keep going it's what you are going to get and have fun feeling comfortable inf your spaces then.

"Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels."

Transpeople are not doing this though so quit using them as scapegoats for a transphobic argument.

"I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down"

LOL except for transpeople right?

So you can see that people do not agree with you both on a personal and political level. You recognize that your views would be considered discrimination in the workplace and would get you fired. And you understand that your views would put you on the same platform as MTG? And yet you still think you are good and justified for being anti-trans? You are the baddie.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2021 21:38

Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it.

Perhaps you should educate yourself on when the IOC stopped requiring full gender reassignment surgery to compete in the Olympics? It was 2015. So this is the first Olympics that they can easily qualify for.

How dare you dismiss women's sport like this?

Keepemguessing · 14/07/2021 21:38

Blimey, what a wall of text!

No, we're not the 'baddies'. We're fighting for women's rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2021 21:40

Transpeople are not doing this though

Yes they are. You don't have the first clue what you are ranting about.

https://medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d

dyslek · 14/07/2021 21:40

I remember a post a while back;

'Well, that was a long scroll past, wasen't it Smile'

It cracked me up.

Wildgarlicpesto · 14/07/2021 21:44

Bingo!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2021 21:45

The issues are the same in America although the political landscape is different. The poster you are attacking came to an international feminist space for support.

It would be nice if many Americans acknowledged that there is a world outside America and that not all online spaces are America-centric.

Gender critical feminist women are not the baddies either here in the U.K., or anywhere else.

ThomasPenman · 14/07/2021 22:09

allDMH17
the stats that exist show that transwomen pose no threat to women in women's spaces

The recent judgement regarding transwomen in UK prisons judicial review would disagree. It was accepted that introducing transwomen to the women's estate increases the risk of sexual assault for the female inmates and increases their fear and trauma.

NoWireHangersEver · 14/07/2021 22:11

I peaked back in 2016 and can honestly say - no, not once

Since then, things have become more and more apparent: the gay and ASD children being transitioned in huge number, the sexual abusers using the movement as a cover, the similarity with other social contagions like anorexia and DID, the realisation of AGP as a motivation for transition, now even highly muscular men competing in the Olympics alongside biological women!

The whole thing was highly suspect to begin with (peaked as a teenage lesbian because of cotton ceiling rhetoric, which is still going on) but the amount of crazy goings-on in the past 5 years really squash any remaining ideas about transgenderism being the reasonable civil rights project it claims to be. I've never had anyone from that side answer the 'what is a woman' or 'what is gender' questions when asked in good faith, and I think that says everything I need to know

littlbrowndog · 14/07/2021 22:14

Hells teeth just scroll,on past

You are the baddie. Whoooooooo

user888 · 14/07/2021 22:19

I don't mind walls of text if they're worthwhile. All I have time for on this particular wall is:

As far as the left in the US is concerned, where we are dealing with wave after wave of anti-trans and homophobic bills. Where in the state I live in you could lose custody of your child for giving them gender-affirming care.

You're dealing with politicians who want to keep female sports for females, i.e., people who haven't been give the strength and other advantages that male puberty gives to athletes; and for "healthcare" to first do no harm, particularly when it comes to messing with the health of children. I'm American, btw, and throwing Rand Paul in as a scarecrow doesn't scare me. Tribal politics are part of the problem, not the solution.

Let's do something that has no impact on my life, but it will make my trans colleagues feel comfortable and accepted.

Pronouns do have an impact.

Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it.

Ask yourself why you have so little empathy for women at the top of their game who will increasingly be supplanted by mediocre males.

N4ish · 14/07/2021 22:23

Sometimes I do question my beliefs on this issue but that’s not a bad thing. Janice Turner described how holding GC views puts you outside your political tribe and I totally agree with that.

I’m straight down the line left wing on every issue bar this one and sometimes seeing myself aligned with people like Liz Truss does feel very, very strange.

StandUpStraight · 14/07/2021 22:25

Nope, definitely not the baddies. What do I see from TRAs and gender ideologists? Demands to colonise women’s spaces and women’s language. An undercurrent of homophobia while tailgating the gay rights movement. Using children as a human shield. And, to back up their demands, arguments that are on a spectrum that starts at “why can’t you just be nice”, traverses incoherent comparisons with different species of fish, and ends at “die in a grease fire”.

Oh, and there are certainly lefty Americans who think gender ideology is harmful nonsense. Check out Drs Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. HTH

Iliketherainbest · 14/07/2021 22:33

I would just like to offer my support OP. Personally, I think it is always good to question one's thinking. Helps test your rationale. Doubt can advance debate. But I am really sorry you do not have people to talk to about this. The one positive contribution I can make is to say that I came to this debate relatively recently (around nine months ago) and I have noticed a huge shift in that time, with the suppression of debate becoming less and less effective. By comparison this topic is coming into the light.

PandorasMailbox · 14/07/2021 22:35

I did initially, but all the rape and death threats put paid to that. Plus being doxxed, having my accounts hacked and being stalked on social media.

Nope. Perfectly comfortable with my stance thanks.

Rhannion · 14/07/2021 22:40

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MoonlightApple · 14/07/2021 22:50

I think it’s good to question any issue or belief you feel strongly about. In answering your doubts you can reaffirm why you hold the convictions you hold. Blind faith/belief is often dangerous.

SuccessfullySaved · 14/07/2021 22:51

Hands up who subscribes to Jammidodger on youtube....

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 14/07/2021 22:55

I have these moments. Partly who we stand beside but also some of the way GC feminists sound like homophobes of the '70's.

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

I think sometimes we pick or frame the wrong 'enemy'. The enemy is men who would use trans rights to get access to women's spaces. It's not trans people.

I don't understand why people fighting for trans rights (which is a totally fair and right thing to fight for) don't denounce rapists and violent men who suddenly declare themselves trans.

trancepants · 14/07/2021 23:08

You might want to catch up @DMH17, there has been the beginnings of a big sea change in the US over the last few weeks. I follow a lot of fitness and health channels. Many have been asked by their followers for their opinions on Laurel Hubbard. So far everyone I've seen has said they support the rights of trans people to live as they want but that biology is real and anyone who's been through male puberty should not be competing in women's sports. And that's without the sudden shock many people have experienced following what happened in the WiSpa.

Even before now, I don't think the huge community of almost exclusively black American women on Lipstick Alley are right wing conservatives? Have you heard of intersectionality? Listening to marginalised voices? Like those of black American women? You should get out of your privileged bubble and give it a go.

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